Integration with Cubase

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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FlowerPower
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by FlowerPower » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:43 pm

Laurence Payne wrote:
Mij wrote: The notation software they offer in Cubase is a total scrap unless you want to spend your evenings figuring out all the maths implied in it. A Mathematician job, not a Musician job.
Were you expecting freely-played music to be auto-magically converted to readable notation? That's not really going to happen in any of the current sequencer or score publishing programs. They work very much on the principle that if you know what notation you want, they'll help you get it on paper. Not 'you play it, we'll tell you what the notation ought to be'.
I've read stuff about Dorico suggesting that it certainly will try to show notation as correct as possible - based on playback. Why wouldn't any score do that anyway?
DG wrote:Dorico is currently a standalone notation program, so there is no integration, apart from being able to import MIDI and Music XML files.

DG
I don't think anyone wants just "integration"; they want the application they work in to handle notation, editing, audio tracks if needed etc.... all in one app. So I'm sure they at least have have discussed how Dorico can work together with Cubase, and maybe with other DAWs as well. The question is only how long it takes until it feels like one workflow, because I'm sure almost everybody would prefer to have one file format, one set of key commands, a consistent UI/look across the various editors (piano roll, mixer, score editor) and so on. Logic have been closer to offer such program for some years, but development in the areas important for composers using notation and virtual instruments seems to have more or less stopped several years ago. But who knows what they are working on. Anyway, I think it would be a big mistake to plan the Cubase/Dorico combo as anything less than a result which feels like working on one program with two modules, as opposed to working in a DAW and a score application.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by fratveno » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:13 pm

Regarding intergration...
For many years now, I've used Cubase or Reaper to host all VSTs and audio. I've fed this setup with Midi out from Finale via virtual Midi cables (LoopBe). This works great because all the articulation switching in Finale ("Human Playback") is Midi data only.

I do hope I'm wrong, but as far as I've understood, this scheme will not be possible with Dorico, as Dorico will use a variant of the Cubase Expression Map system. I assume Xmaps ares not only Midi data, and hence will require the VSTs and audio handling to reside within Dorico itself... (?)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by jlevymusic » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:37 pm

No, expression maps are much more powerful and flexible than Finale's human playback. You can send external midi channel change info, or keyswitches, or program changes, or really any other conceivable way of changing an articulation. It works great in Cubase hosting sounds externally in VE Pro. No reason it shouldn't work in Dorico, as well.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by fratveno » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:30 am

but it makes me wonder why the Dorico team (apparently) has spent considerable time and effort implementing the Cubase audio engine... If the Dorico Xmap system can travel via virtual Midi cables into Cubase, they could have decided to sell it bundled with Cubase elements...
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by shanabit » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:44 pm

No direct integration with Cubase, no sale here. Pointless IMO
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by David Tee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:27 pm

fratveno wrote:but it makes me wonder why the Dorico team (apparently) has spent considerable time and effort implementing the Cubase audio engine... If the Dorico Xmap system can travel via virtual Midi cables into Cubase, they could have decided to sell it bundled with Cubase elements...
Why wouldn't they implement the Cubase audio engine? You'd be nuts not to tap into all that expertise and development when it's there within the same company.

Personally, I think Cubase and Dorico will link at some point in the future. Quite how and when, I've no idea but in strictly business terms it would make sense now for Steinberg to develop two distinct top-end programs, both aimed at different markets as opposed to inflating one major DAW with a next-generation top-end notation program - potentially the best there is - bundled as part of it. That's selling Dorico way short, missing a bunch of opportunities that Cubase could never realise and, frankly, selling the entire notation software market short.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:14 pm

About integration with Cubase, earlier this week Notion 6 was released. One of the new features is closer integration with Studio One, PreSonus' DAW sioftware program. See below. I have Notion 6 (but not Studio One), this might be interesting for Dorico as well. Although I'm kind of hoping that 95% of the tweaking could be done within Dorico itself. The ability to tweak just a few basic parameters (velocity, mod wheel, expression, maybe CC 7) and maybe insert an EQ or create buses to enable different reverbs would go a very long way.

http://www.presonus.com/press/press-releases/Notion-6

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:26 pm

Peter Roos wrote:About integration with Cubase, earlier this week Notion 6 was released. One of the new features is closer integration with Studio One, PreSonus' DAW software program.
I think "closer integration" is a vast understatement. It is very close to seamless. You can start in either product and very easily connect with the other product. Such details like instrument name are carried across automatically. In Notion (the scoring side) you can enable a view option that show the actual MIDI duration of the notes as a shaded extension to the normal noteheads, and you can make that level of MIDI adjustment right there in Notion, having it reflected in the StudioOne platform.

Basically this should be the road map that any developer of any notation product ought to be following if they don't want to be seen as a glorified version of the 1990 engraving programs.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Derrek » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:24 pm

You reference Notion 6. Was this integration present in Notion 1? Let's be fair. The development team has mentioned likely future symbiosis between Dorico and Cubase.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by fratveno » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:52 am

True, but if you bring a new car to market, it will invariably be compared to the current competition. Market forces are getting less and less sentimental...
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:10 am

Yes, and the competition is Sibelius and Finale. Not Notion. Or Studio One. or Cubase. Or Pro Tools.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:06 pm

DG wrote:Yes, and the competition is Sibelius and Finale. Not Notion. Or Studio One. or Cubase. Or Pro Tools.
Umm... Don't you forget something ?

>> Cubase Score Editor

I decided to go with Cubase Score years ago after trying multiple times Finale and Sibelius in the past, and decided to keep using it every time over years, for this reason precisely : having a powerful scoring program inside a powerful and probably the best DAW in the market.

I'd like to add that my main use of Cubase Pro is ... the scoring section ! ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:24 pm

TheMaestro wrote:
DG wrote:Yes, and the competition is Sibelius and Finale. Not Notion. Or Studio One. or Cubase. Or Pro Tools.
Umm... Don't you forget something ?

>> Cubase Score Editor

I decided to go with Cubase Score years ago after trying multiple times Finale and Sibelius in the past, and decided to keep using it every time over years, for this reason precisely : having a powerful scoring program inside a powerful and probably the best DAW in the market.

I'd like to add that my main use of Cubase Pro is ... the scoring section ! ;)
For me has been exactly the same Maestro!

But I hope Dorico will be able to do better :)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:41 pm

TheMaestro wrote:
DG wrote:Yes, and the competition is Sibelius and Finale. Not Notion. Or Studio One. or Cubase. Or Pro Tools.
Umm... Don't you forget something ?

>> Cubase Score Editor
Nope, I didn't forget that load of old tripe. I was talking about professional notation programs and Cubase is not in the same universe as either Sibelius or Finale. If Dorico can't compete with either of those, it is a waste of space.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:21 am

DG wrote:I didn't forget that load of old tripe. I was talking about professional notation programs and Cubase is not in the same universe as either Sibelius or Finale.
With all due respect, I have the feeling you don't quite know what you're talking about sir !
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:30 am

cparmerlee wrote:
Peter Roos wrote:About integration with Cubase, earlier this week Notion 6 was released. One of the new features is closer integration with Studio One, PreSonus' DAW software program.
I think "closer integration" is a vast understatement. It is very close to seamless. You can start in either product and very easily connect with the other product. Such details like instrument name are carried across automatically. In Notion (the scoring side) you can enable a view option that show the actual MIDI duration of the notes as a shaded extension to the normal noteheads, and you can make that level of MIDI adjustment right there in Notion, having it reflected in the StudioOne platform.

Basically this should be the road map that any developer of any notation product ought to be following if they don't want to be seen as a glorified version of the 1990 engraving programs.
A little OT for this forum, but do you know whether there are any videos demonstrating the integration of Notion and Studio One? I have Notion 6 but am fairly new to the program. I subscribed to the Notion forum and posted a specific question but got zero feedback so far.

Anyways, back on topic, I mentioned Notion 6 in this forum as an example of how notation and DAW functionality might be integrated. I'm not saying that the Notion / PreSonus approach is the Holy Grail. It is just an example.

And no, I don't expect that any of the advanced integration with audio playback will be there in version 1. But as long as it is on the radar screen I am more than happy.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:09 am

TheMaestro wrote:
DG wrote:I didn't forget that load of old tripe. I was talking about professional notation programs and Cubase is not in the same universe as either Sibelius or Finale.
With all due respect, I have the feeling you don't quite know what you're talking about sir !
In what sense? Do you mean that I don't know enough about scoring software to know that the Cubase Score Editor is a load of old tripe? Or that I don't know what I'm talking about in general? Or...?


Perhaps you'd like to explain why in 30 years of using notation software, I've never yet come across any professional working at the top level, either in the concert or commercial sector, who uses anything other than SCORE, Sibelius or Finale. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think you have the experience to know the difference.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:23 pm

DG wrote:Do you mean that I don't know enough about scoring software to know that the Cubase Score Editor is a load of old tripe? Or that I don't know what I'm talking about in general? Or...?
What I meant is that you probably don't know enough about "Cubase Score Editor" to state that "Cubase is not in the same universe as either Sibelius or Final".

Firstly I precise that we're talking about "Cubase Score Editor" and not "Cubase".

The Score Editor in Cubase has always been underestimated and unknown, certainly because it 's not as intuitive as the other two.

As you may know, the Score Editor in Cubase is not a simple editor (like key editor etc ...) to make adjustments or to create express scores. It's a HUGE software, that could very well be a standalone ... integrated into Cubase. And this is one of its biggest advantage over the other two.

Why do you think there is a separate user manual for the Score Editor only ?
Maybe the fact that this program is "hidden" in a tab in the Cubase menu could be confusing.

If you've had "really" used the Score Editor, you would have certainly known that it is as professional as Finale and Sibelius.
DG wrote:I've never yet come across any professional working at the top level, either in the concert or commercial sector, who uses anything other than SCORE, Sibelius or Finale.
Because Finale and Sibelius are intuitive and best suited for music engravers.
Cubase Score Editor is not intuitive at all, it has a steep learning curve and you really have to be patient to learn it in order to get the results you expect. But only after you master the software that you can judge how professional it is. I write for orchestra and I've never faced any limitation.

The main advantage of Cubase Score Editor over other notation programs, once again, is the powerful audio engine in the hood. For a composer who also scores to film, like me, this in invaluable.
That's why I look forward to a complete integration into Cubase.

Maybe the only problem with the SE is that it hasn't been updated for a long time, and that's certainly because of the Dorico project.
DG wrote:I don't think you have the experience to know the difference.
You have no evidence here to say that, my dear ;)
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:16 pm

Completely agree. With CubScore you have to know exactly what you want, and the result isn't automatic at all, but you can get it. In my opinion the biggest defect is the spacing algorithm, you have to correct by hand in many cases, but the results can be quite good. Also the three points standard slurs should be often changed with Bezier and there are many other small defects, but the integration with the rest is invaluable.
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by fratveno » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:53 pm

DG is absolutely correct. DORICO has been conceived and developed to surpass Finale and Sibelius, why would they otherwise offer crossgrade discounts for owners of those programs? And why would Steinberg spend millions on developing a new notation software if they thought "CubScore" was competitive? Personally, I have 30+ years experience as a composer and music engraver, having produced serveral thousands of pages of avant-garde, contemporary art music. I would go so far as to say that at least 30% of the projects I have been involved in could not have been completed in anything but Finale (or SCORE). With Sibelius you would have been forced to employ additional software like Illustrator and Indesign and spend a lot more man hours to get there. We are talking about an area of music notation where commercial and film composers rarely come.

But we may also be talking about an area of music notation for which there is a very limited need. So how to boost sales and attract a much broader user base? Maybe they established this pre-release forum just to find out?
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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:56 pm

TheMaestro wrote:
If you've had "really" used the Score Editor, you would have certainly known that it is as professional as Finale and Sibelius.
OK, I can see that there is not really any point in continuing this discussion.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by TheMaestro » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:27 pm

DG wrote:
TheMaestro wrote:
If you've had "really" used the Score Editor, you would have certainly known that it is as professional as Finale and Sibelius.
OK, I can see that there is not really any point in continuing this discussion.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Peter Roos » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:40 am

Going back to Notion 6, and the integration of notation software and DAW especially, I have some additional information.

First off, here is a video which explains the current integration of Notion 6, and Studio One.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6pGiH15jA

That looks pretty cool, but if you drill a bit deeper, there are two major things missing:

1. There is no automatic synchronization of the midi information between the scoring program, and the DAW program.
2. More importantly, and this is really a deal breaker, while the midi is sent to Studio One, apparently there is no way to control any parameters like dynamics / expression / technique, even with a simple script.

See this discussion on the PreSonus forum:

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.p ... 63#p113963

In summary, this is NOT the direction I would like to see Dorico go ... and I'm not even mentioning the clunky way to enter even basic score information into Notion, like entering notes, ties, sharps or flats ... setting up a score ... you click a note and sometimes you hear something, sometimes not ... not to mention the crazy spacing ... you can easily enter six quarter notes in a 4/4 score, but you have to manually add the rests. :roll: Maybe I am spoiled in being used to Sibelius.

I am preaching to the choir, as I am quite sure that Daniel and Paul understand all of this perfectly well, way better than I do probably, and at the risk of repeating myself, here's what I would really love to see:

1. A notation program that is easy and intuitive to set up scores, with decent playback. Doesn't have to be great, just decent. Along with all the other improvements, that will make the day for possibly half of the user base of notation programs today.

2. For those people that like to use VSTs, a relatively simple way to incorporate their favorite VST, within Dorico, with a simple toolbox. There are dozens of VSTs now and the army is growing daily .. no point in trying to provide programming for all those, just give people simple tools.

3. Somewhere down the road, integration with Cubase or other DAWs.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:35 pm

TheMaestro wrote: If you've had "really" used the Score Editor, you would have certainly known that it is as professional as Finale and Sibelius.
I've no idea what theMaestro thinks "professional" means in that sentence. Obviously it was written by professional programmers - but even then "professional" doesn't necessarily mean the same as "being paid a salary to do the job".

I've never used it (and I haven't used Cubase for about 15 years either), but I have looked some of the scores posted by one of the enthusiasts for it (both on this forum and elsewhere).

In terms of "marks out of 10 for the typical quality of output produced by non-professional engravers" I would give Finale about 7 and Sibelius about 5 (and I use both of them every day). Cubase Score Editor? From what I've seen, if I was feeling charitable, maybe 1. If I was feeling honest, 0.

Of course, it doesn't have to produce beautiful engraving to be useful as a feature in Cubase itself - but judging it as a notation program is a different matter altogether.

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Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Robert Enns » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:33 pm

Rob are you actually using Sibelius 4.1 or is your signature on the Sib forum just not updated?
If it's 4.1 then surely it's not a fair comment about its level of output compared to other programs. There have been improvements since then surely you would agree.
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