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150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:10 pm
by slamdunktyping
I’ve noticed wavelab adding 150 ms to the end of WAV files after export. I’m using CD markers to separate the montage into tracks. It’s the most apparent (and the one that brought this to my attention by the client) at a CD splice- it’s supposed to seamlessly transition from track 1 to track 2 with feedback from track 1 connecting them.

I haven’t had this problem in the past but after digging through the manual, this forum and seemingly every damn menu in wavelab, I’m losing it... anyone have any ideas?

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:14 pm
by Justin P
If you post a screenshot of your markers tab, and render settings, we might be able to help.

If you make a Save As... of your montage and remove all plugins, does that fix it? That could be a clue.

For many reasons, I do a full render of the entire project first as one long floating point file. I use the setting that tells WaveLab to create a new montage from the resulting file so all the info is carried over.

Then I insert a simple dither and render the files needed. This workflow helps minimize plugins causing gapless track issues in my experience.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:34 am
by slamdunktyping
Thanks a lot for the message Justin. I’ll try this tomorrow morning and report back with screenshots.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:58 am
by Justin P
slamdunktyping wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:34 am
Thanks a lot for the message Justin. I’ll try this tomorrow morning and report back with screenshots.
No problem. There are just too many variables and details to speculate any further without likely going down the wrong path. More info will help pinpoint the problem.

I do a fair amount of albums that have overlapping tracks, or where track spacing and gapless playback is crucial. I also just wrapped up a 2 CD live show where the tracks need to be seamless when rendered as WAVs, or of course DDP.

WaveLab, can do it, but it's not hard to induce a problem.

Even if it's a plugin causing this, usually doing the full render of the project in one pass solves the problem. I do this as a precaution for all projects. Or if it's a rendering settings problem, a screen shot of your render settings and more info will help.

I assume you have visually and audibly verified the problem too, and it's not just a playback issue on their end?

I will only be around early tomorrow but I'll try to answer you when I can, or maybe others can help too.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:00 am
by Rat
Are you maybe sample rate converting as part of the export? This will typically add ms at the end of the file on render.

This is one reason that I (unlike some others) prefer to assemble the final CD from the 16/44.1 finals.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:25 pm
by Justin P
Rat wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:00 am
Are you maybe sample rate converting as part of the export? This will typically add ms at the end of the file on render.

This is one reason that I (unlike some others) prefer to assemble the final CD from the 16/44.1 finals.
That's one way to do it, but I find that nearly all clients want to also have an assembled 24-bit/high sample rate version, and some need/want a hi-res vinyl pre-master. So only having the sequenced masters @ 1644 doesn't work for me here.

What does work is assembling at the high/native sample rate, adding makers/CD-Text/Metadata, rendering a full floating point WAV of the project as one file and having WL automatically create a new montage from that rendered file, so basically everything is the same except all the plugin processing is locked in.

Then I save that new montage, add a 24-bit dither to the montage out and now I can render 24-bit/96k WAVs of each track.

Then I can convert that full floating point WAV of the project to 44.1k floating point using RX or the software of my choice, and using the custom montage copy feature, WaveLab full recreates the montage at 44.1k. I simply change the dither plugin in the montage master to 16-bit, and now I'm ready to render 1644 WAVs of each track, a DDP, or remove the dither and render reference mp3 files.

It looks like a lot in typing but it can be done in seconds (minus the rendering time).

This way all master formats are 100% in sync, and no glitches or gaps between tracks.

Asking any software to render track by track, with plugins running live, and potentially sample rate converting and doing so without a glitch between tracks is probably asking too much.

I like to go in smaller steps to assure no problems, and then I also have a lot of flexibility.

After this is approved, I can revisit the source montage with the plugins still active, and make the vinyl pre-master or any alternate versions if needed, and we know the sequencing will match 100%.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:37 pm
by PG
adding 150 ms to the end of WAV files after export
When you render a full montage, the rendering happens until the last markers, not the last clip.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:36 pm
by slamdunktyping
Thanks for all the info guys!

I took Justin’s advice and rendered the whole montage with master section processing as a 24bit WAV. Then imported that and synced it to the markers and rendered as CD tracks. Worked perfectly!!

From that I dithered and resampled to 16bit 44.1 for the cd res masters.
And rendered a 24 bit tape-friendly master, and exported that as individuals too.

This method is actually faster for me than exporting individuals pre-mastersection processing in all the formats. I have a few idea off this that might be even quicker (im greedy and hate waiting on render times)

You really saved me on this. Thx again :)

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:40 pm
by Justin P
slamdunktyping wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:36 pm
Thanks for all the info guys!

I took Justin’s advice and rendered the whole montage with master section processing as a 24bit WAV. Then imported that and synced it to the markers and rendered as CD tracks. Worked perfectly!!

From that I dithered and resampled to 16bit 44.1 for the cd res masters.
And rendered a 24 bit tape-friendly master, and exported that as individuals too.

This method is actually faster for me than exporting individuals pre-mastersection processing in all the formats. I have a few idea off this that might be even quicker (im greedy and hate waiting on render times)

You really saved me on this. Thx again :)
It's interesting that was the fix. I had a feeling it was from some plugin related CPU/latency possibly compound by trying to resample all in one shot.

Next time, instead of having to import and sync up the new rendered file, you can use the settings in the attached screen shot. WaveLab will make a new montage with all the markers, CD-Text, etc. added. You just have to Save the montage with a new name and go from there. This way you can also double check that things rendered correctly.

If you want to split hairs, you'd probably want to do the full render at floating point, add a live 24-bit dither in the first resulting montage and render those files, and then change the dither to 16-bit after your resampling. This way each format is only dithered once, and dithered last.

I do this for all projects (using the Custom Montage Copy feature as well) because I can't trust gapless rendering of files when done one at a time. Too many things can go wrong. Best to get all the processing locked in (besides dither) in one single render pass before rendering each track as a WAV.

Re: 150ms added at CD marker points after the export

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:28 am
by Rat
Justin P wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:25 pm
Rat wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:00 am
Are you maybe sample rate converting as part of the export? This will typically add ms at the end of the file on render.

This is one reason that I (unlike some others) prefer to assemble the final CD from the 16/44.1 finals.
That's one way to do it, but I find that nearly all clients want to also have an assembled 24-bit/high sample rate version, and some need/want a hi-res vinyl pre-master. So only having the sequenced masters @ 1644 doesn't work for me here.
As do I ... standard deliverables to labels in my jurisdiction (at least until recently). I think we both get to the same end result in different ways and probably in about the same time frame. That's what's especially good about WL ... you can adapt it to your specific work preferences without difficulty.