Any time table for Wavelab 10???

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:14 am

pwhodges wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:51 pm
panatrope wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:26 am
WL (as with SF) has hitherto regarded its mission as being a multichannel editor, not a multi-track production tool.
But I don't want it to become a production tool; I'm looking forward to it becoming a fully-functional multichannel editor which it currently is not in any real sense.
That is the last thing I want WL to become. There are sooooooooooooooooooooooo many multitrack editors. WL is fine as a MASTERING DAW. Please don't make it into a multitrack recorder/editor. FWIW

People who keep wanting this should spend some money and buy a good multitrack editor and quit trying to make WL an "audio Swiss Army Knife".

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Iftekharul Anam » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm

I am relatively new to these terms. I apologise in any case. But I have two questions at this point,


1. Is 'multichannel' the same as 'multitrack'?

2. How is it not better if Wavelab can work better with multichannel or/and multitrack files?
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:24 pm

Iftekharul Anam wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm
I am relatively new to these terms. I apologise in any case. But I have two questions at this point,


1. Is 'multichannel' the same as 'multitrack'?

2. How is it not better if Wavelab can work better with multichannel or/and multitrack files?
Yes, but people on this list keep asking for WL to become a multitrack recorder and editor and I am not sure why they cannot use something like CuBase or Samplitude?? Why do we need for WL to become something it is not designed to do. It is a MASTERING DAW not a general purpose DAW.
FWIW! :(
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by PG » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:45 pm

WaveLab is not limited to Mastering, but on another hand, it has no ambition to compete with programs such as Cubase.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by pwhodges » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:08 pm

Iftekharul Anam wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm
1. Is 'multichannel' the same as 'multitrack'?
The terms are often used confusingly, but there are two clearly different concepts.

Picture an editor in which you have stereo files on different track and you can vary the mixing of them; This (especially if it has a fader view) is a DAW for music production. Now change each stereo file to be a 5.1 file - six channels in one multichannel file - you can still mix the different 5.1 groups on the separate tracks.
2. How is it not better if Wavelab can work better with multichannel or/and multitrack files?
Multitrack mixing is catered for in other programs like Cubase. But WaveLab is unrivalled for editing and mastering. It can even edit surround audio - but only with the channels in several separate mono and stereo files which have to be placed on different tracks of the montage - even though they are conceptually a single "surround track". But every action is complicated by having to select all the clips to be acted on together, and only some actions can be done on multiple clips at all. Using WaveLab for handling more channels then the two of stereo is a hack - usable for some things, but ultimately severely limited.

All my audio is surround, which is why I want to be able to handle files with not just two channels, but greater numbers (not limited to 5.1 or even 7.1).

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm

PG wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:45 pm
WaveLab is not limited to Mastering, but on another hand, it has no ambition to compete with programs such as Cubase.
Precisely my point. I use WL daily and it works GREAT for mastering and restoration and even post production. I also have Samplitude if I need a multitrack recorder and editor. I personally do not need WL to become a full blown multitrack recorder and editor. I like it fine the way it is.

I have long wondered about the people that want WL to be a multitrack recorder and editor. Are they so cheap they cannot afford two different DAW programs??? I currently have 5 separate DAWs on my computer that I use for different purposes. If you are a professional you can write off software purchases.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by profdraper » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:26 pm

pwhodges wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:08 pm
Iftekharul Anam wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm
1. Is 'multichannel' the same as 'multitrack'?
The terms are often used confusingly, but there are two clearly different concepts.
Odd discussion ... quite simply, many of us would like to be able to edit interleaved multi-channel (surround) audio files in Wavelab in exactly the same way as stereo files.
So that would include eg, 5.1, 7.1 etc but the challenge would also in be how far that could go in terms of more recent contemporary formats, eg Dolby Atmos, VR etc. Perhaps the latter may well be best reserved for the likes of Nuendo, still, it would make much sense to consider the 'hot links' between Nunendo and Wavelab which presently serve little purpose other than for round-tripping only stereo or mono files. Overall, seems a little dated and tends to focus and assume mastering for CD (in 2019!?). At the very least, surely 5.1 & 7.1?
Then of course, the update to also include SpectralLayers IO as per Nuendo & Cubase.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Iftekharul Anam » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:29 am

profdraper wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:26 pm
pwhodges wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:08 pm
Iftekharul Anam wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm
1. Is 'multichannel' the same as 'multitrack'?
The terms are often used confusingly, but there are two clearly different concepts.
Odd discussion ... quite simply, many of us would like to be able to edit interleaved multi-channel (surround) audio files in Wavelab in exactly the same way as stereo files.
So that would include eg, 5.1, 7.1 etc but the challenge would also in be how far that could go in terms of more recent contemporary formats, eg Dolby Atmos, VR etc. Perhaps the latter may well be best reserved for the likes of Nuendo, still, it would make much sense to consider the 'hot links' between Nunendo and Wavelab which presently serve little purpose other than for round-tripping only stereo or mono files. Overall, seems a little dated and tends to focus and assume mastering for CD (in 2019!?). At the very least, surely 5.1 & 7.1?
Then of course, the update to also include SpectralLayers IO as per Nuendo & Cubase.
You are very much right and this is being addressed in the next big upgrade (v10) if I am not mistaken. So, I am eagerly waiting for that upgrade to be released.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Arjan P » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:23 pm

profdraper wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:26 pm
Overall, seems a little dated and tends to focus and assume mastering for CD (in 2019!?). At the very least, surely 5.1 & 7.1?
Well, that's a bold statement. So, stereo is for CD and cutting edge is 5.1 or 7.1 at least?
Last time I checked, people had two ears (the ones I know at least), so however desirable multichannel editing may be for WL, the bulk of the work for mastering engineers will remain stereo. How it is delivered is not really relevant - you might wanna check the increasing popularity of vinyl!
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by pwhodges » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:26 pm

Hmm. Last time I checked, the world was three dimensional, and hearing sound reproduced in a line between two speakers utterly failed to represent how it is perceived in that real world!

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Arjan P » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:37 pm

But I hope you do see everyone in public (ages 10 - 70 roughly) with only two earbuds, either wired or not, one in each ear, right? They listen to whatever it is, but we all call it stereo. Only 2 channels. And they do wander the real world, and someone needs to master what they're listening to - in stereo. Not 5.1 or 7.1 (at least!) multichannel.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by pwhodges » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:28 pm

But music in games and virtual reality, even though delivered through earbuds, can be moved around in response to head movements from a fully 3D source (the most powerful technology for doing that is Ambisonics). There's more I could say, but this isn't really the place.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Vocalpoint » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:50 pm

toader wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:08 am
PG, Please don't ever turn Wavelab into a multi-track production tool like Cubase, etc. Unless it's limited to like 12 tracks or something. If I need to mix, I can do it in Cubase, or another software specializing in that.
Amen brother.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by panatrope » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:28 am

One of WaveLabs' great strengths is in the area of radio broadcasting, where the montage facility is un-equalled as a production tool for assembling a broadcast sequence (stereo is fine - not too many surround radio stations so far). Keeping this market happy (offering improved flexibility and productivity) would possibly encourage cash-strapped broadcasters to shell out some of their meagre budget for upgrades ...

The ability to take a multichannel location recording and efficiently down-mix it to a stereo form in the montage mode could be part of this. But multitracking (a la project studio) is not something I am looking for WaveLab to do, because there exists already a panoply of programs out there that do it very well. But few of them do the things that WaveLab does very well. So, horses for courses ...
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Rat » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:29 am

I don't really have an opinion on the multi track thing one way or another ... but I will make the observation that putting the licenses in place to make WL function like ProFools Ultimate/HD or Nuendo (which I have zero experience with) may not be straight forward. And I suspect that having the Dolby Atmos thing happening may not be inexpensive and present challenges on different levels. WL as an editor is unrivaled I think. And editing the files ... as opposed to adjusting mix elements ... I can totally understand why that would be useful indeed. Would I want to adjust a 3D mix in it ... well that's a personal DAW choice but 'maybe not'.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 am

Interesting article on Dolby Atmos https://www.whathifi.com/us/advice/dolb ... you-get-it One sentence really struck me. "Up to 400 speakers can be used in the top Dolby Atmos cinemas, but in a domestic environment it's unlikely you'll have the room (or the will) to house such a speaker count". Thanks but I will stick to my 5.1 system for watching movies and my stereo mastering speakers for work. I doubt many of us will be "upgrading" to master in Dolby Atmos. FWIW.
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Rat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:01 am

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 am
I doubt many of us will be "upgrading" to master in Dolby Atmos. FWIW.
This is probably not the place or context to discuss this, but it's actually a bit more complicated than just being 'able' to do it. See this Dolby certification page for example

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professiona ... vices.html
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by dr » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm

just to put my 2 cents in......I also don't want WL to become multi-track production tool like Cubase but I do want multi channel file editing. I find it unbelievable that it can't treat multichannel like stereo....cubase has been able to do this for many years.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by oblio98 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:51 pm

Add me to the list of those wanting WaveLab to have the ability to work on a 5.1 wav or flac file. Why not?
If you don't need the ability or don't like going beyond 2 channels - don't use that feature. There are a lot of features that I do not use but I don't campaign to have them removed or abandoned!

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Vocalpoint » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 pm

panatrope wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:28 am
One of WaveLabs' great strengths is in the area of radio broadcasting, where the montage facility is un-equalled as a production tool for assembling a broadcast sequence (stereo is fine - not too many surround radio stations so far).
I disagree with "unequaled" - I do a ton of radio stuff and I find the Montage to be the clunkiest environment ever to work in. I can blaze through any broadcast sequence project in a tenth of the time in Studio One than trying to figure out how to get the Montage to behave.

To be fair - I am keenly aware of why I do not get on with it - the old school Version 5 look and feel, the cursor incessantly blinking it's capability of all the different things it will do dependent on where the pointer is on screen etc etc. Even adding a track is a pain in there.

While I know there are passionate Montage fans out there - clearly I have not invested enough time or effort to understand it - but as a "multi track" environment - it feels like it's way too much work for what I get out of it. A real multitrack environment designed for this type of works - gets me the same deliverable in drastically less time with drastically less frustration.

I have done the occasional mixtape, CD etc in the Montage (albeit when WL does most of the heavy lifting putting the tracks on the timeline etc) but stereo work and other audio utility type work I need to do (Batch conversion, needledrops etc etc) - is where WL shines for me.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:41 am

Vocalpoint wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 pm
panatrope wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:28 am
One of WaveLabs' great strengths is in the area of radio broadcasting, where the montage facility is un-equalled as a production tool for assembling a broadcast sequence (stereo is fine - not too many surround radio stations so far).
I disagree with "unequaled" - I do a ton of radio stuff and I find the Montage to be the clunkiest environment ever to work in. I can blaze through any broadcast sequence project in a tenth of the time in Studio One than trying to figure out how to get the Montage to behave.

To be fair - I am keenly aware of why I do not get on with it - the old school Version 5 look and feel, the cursor incessantly blinking it's capability of all the different things it will do dependent on where the pointer is on screen etc etc. Even adding a track is a pain in there.

While I know there are passionate Montage fans out there - clearly I have not invested enough time or effort to understand it - but as a "multi track" environment - it feels like it's way too much work for what I get out of it. A real multitrack environment designed for this type of works - gets me the same deliverable in drastically less time with drastically less frustration.

I have done the occasional mixtape, CD etc in the Montage (albeit when WL does most of the heavy lifting putting the tracks on the timeline etc) but stereo work and other audio utility type work I need to do (Batch conversion, needledrops etc etc) - is where WL shines for me.

VP

I used to do a lot of radio production and used Montage for all my editing and production. It saved me a lot of time and I could do most everything just using the montage. I am sorry you have not taken the time to delve into the depths of the Montage. I think if you did you would be amazed at what you can do. FWIW
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Vocalpoint » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:10 pm

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:41 am
I am sorry you have not taken the time to delve into the depths of the Montage. I think if you did you would be amazed at what you can do. FWIW
To be perfectly honset - I have tried at least a half dozen times to deep delve over the course of v6 until now - nothing seems to stick :)

I guess me and the ole Montage are just not meant to be. And that's OK.

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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by plyman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:35 pm

Many mastering engineers rely on outboard great for processing. Not having a real 2 track loopback is a huge PITA! I don't think most folks are asking for a multitrack daw, but 2 track capture (like EVERY OTHER MASTERING CENTRIC DAW) should be a no brainer. It's not a matter of having other software (I have PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc...), I'd just like to keep it all in one program. It would be nice to "punch in" on processed mixes (again, like Sequoia, Pyrimix, etc offer). I love WL, just wish they would address this issue. It's the one thing that keeps some mastering folks away.

WL has always had the ability to customize the work environment. If you don't want the option don't use it. It's the #1 complaint I hear from peers when discussing DAWs for mastering. Should be easy to implement. More folks want it than not. So far you seem to be the only one railing against it.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm
PG wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:45 pm
WaveLab is not limited to Mastering, but on another hand, it has no ambition to compete with programs such as Cubase.
Precisely my point. I use WL daily and it works GREAT for mastering and restoration and even post production. I also have Samplitude if I need a multitrack recorder and editor. I personally do not need WL to become a full blown multitrack recorder and editor. I like it fine the way it is.

I have long wondered about the people that want WL to be a multitrack recorder and editor. Are they so cheap they cannot afford two different DAW programs??? I currently have 5 separate DAWs on my computer that I use for different purposes. If you are a professional you can write off software purchases.

FWIW
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by Thomas W. Bethel » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:44 am

plyman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:35 pm
Many mastering engineers rely on outboard great for processing. Not having a real 2 track loopback is a huge PITA! I don't think most folks are asking for a multitrack daw, but 2 track capture (like EVERY OTHER MASTERING CENTRIC DAW) should be a no brainer. It's not a matter of having other software (I have PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc...), I'd just like to keep it all in one program. It would be nice to "punch in" on processed mixes (again, like Sequoia, Pyrimix, etc offer). I love WL, just wish they would address this issue. It's the one thing that keeps some mastering folks away.

WL has always had the ability to customize the work environment. If you don't want the option don't use it. It's the #1 complaint I hear from peers when discussing DAWs for mastering. Should be easy to implement. More folks want it than not. So far you seem to be the only one railing against it.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm
PG wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:45 pm
WaveLab is not limited to Mastering, but on another hand, it has no ambition to compete with programs such as Cubase.
Precisely my point. I use WL daily and it works GREAT for mastering and restoration and even post production. I also have Samplitude if I need a multitrack recorder and editor. I personally do not need WL to become a full blown multitrack recorder and editor. I like it fine the way it is.

I have long wondered about the people that want WL to be a multitrack recorder and editor. Are they so cheap they cannot afford two different DAW programs??? I currently have 5 separate DAWs on my computer that I use for different purposes. If you are a professional you can write off software purchases.

FWIW
Some people seem to be asking for WL to become a full multichannel recorder and editor. I don't really see the need. I agree with you that it would be nice for WL to be able to do a 2 track loopback but I can somewhat do that now. I take the output of the file I need to process and put it into my Z-Systems router. I route that to my external gear and then with the same router bring it back into WL for recording. Seems to work just fine but you do need an external router. This process creates a new file which may not be what you are looking for. But it does work and works well. FWIW
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Re: Any time table for Wavelab 10???

Post by plyman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:43 pm

My workaround is playing out of 9.5 montage, thru console/outboard and capture in the WAVE window in WL 8.5. Been doing that for years and it works. But I'd love standard lane style recording so I could punch in on masters without all the extra editing.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:44 am
plyman wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:35 pm
Many mastering engineers rely on outboard great for processing. Not having a real 2 track loopback is a huge PITA! I don't think most folks are asking for a multitrack daw, but 2 track capture (like EVERY OTHER MASTERING CENTRIC DAW) should be a no brainer. It's not a matter of having other software (I have PT, Cubase, Reaper, etc...), I'd just like to keep it all in one program. It would be nice to "punch in" on processed mixes (again, like Sequoia, Pyrimix, etc offer). I love WL, just wish they would address this issue. It's the one thing that keeps some mastering folks away.

WL has always had the ability to customize the work environment. If you don't want the option don't use it. It's the #1 complaint I hear from peers when discussing DAWs for mastering. Should be easy to implement. More folks want it than not. So far you seem to be the only one railing against it.

Thomas W. Bethel wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 pm


Precisely my point. I use WL daily and it works GREAT for mastering and restoration and even post production. I also have Samplitude if I need a multitrack recorder and editor. I personally do not need WL to become a full blown multitrack recorder and editor. I like it fine the way it is.

I have long wondered about the people that want WL to be a multitrack recorder and editor. Are they so cheap they cannot afford two different DAW programs??? I currently have 5 separate DAWs on my computer that I use for different purposes. If you are a professional you can write off software purchases.

FWIW
Some people seem to be asking for WL to become a full multichannel recorder and editor. I don't really see the need. I agree with you that it would be nice for WL to be able to do a 2 track loopback but I can somewhat do that now. I take the output of the file I need to process and put it into my Z-Systems router. I route that to my external gear and then with the same router bring it back into WL for recording. Seems to work just fine but you do need an external router. This process creates a new file which may not be what you are looking for. But it does work and works well. FWIW
Pete Lyman
Infrasonic Mastering
www.infrasonicsound.com

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