The error correction function is horrible

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The error correction function is horrible

Post by cmbourget » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:05 pm

I am new to Wavelab. The error correction function is horrible. No way to identify errors and fix them normally. We go around in circles, we do not know, even after reading the manual, if the error is corrected. We ask to go to the next error and it comes back. We think we have correct, we ask to check and it brings us the error.

But how can such expensive software work so badly?
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:03 am

cmbourget wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:05 pm
I am new to Wavelab. The error correction function is horrible. No way to identify errors and fix them normally. We go around in circles, we do not know, even after reading the manual, if the error is corrected. We ask to go to the next error and it comes back. We think we have correct, we ask to check and it brings us the error.

But how can such expensive software work so badly?
I use it all the time because I prefer it to plugins like Restore Rig or Izotope. But since the factory preset called "Click Detection" has been added I think it will continue to garner complaints from first time users of the function. That factory preset uses the function called Digital Click Detection which is really only usable on pristine unprocessed low level material. On any normal mixes you'll get thousands of detections and an error message. With it's default settings it marks and "repairs" single samples only, which for the most part is pretty useless in most cases imo.

Use one of the other two factory presets. I think Steinberg should dump, modify, or rename the "Click Detection" factory preset, because this will probably come up again because of it.

"Go to the next error and it comes back" should not be happening in the latest version I don't think.

You can tell if an error is corrected by the green corrected markers around it, if that's set in the options.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Rat » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:08 am

Like bob99 I use it literally every project, but 'manually' ... on specific clicks etc that I identify by listening. I don't think I have ever used the auto-style 'click detection' for the reasons he outlined and some others. I also prefer it to third party options, but that comes down to personal preference.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Arjan P » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:48 pm

Like Bob and Paul I use the error correction function on a regular basis as well. The issue that throws most new users is the error detection part, which you really have to adjust for your own needs. I did on some occasions in the past, but mostly use the error correction function after identifying an audible (and later visible) click or issue. And the options work great there, especially the repair <2 ms function, which I use in maybe 95% of the cases.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by cmbourget » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm

bob99 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:03 am
cmbourget wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:05 pm
I am new to Wavelab. The error correction function is horrible. No way to identify errors and fix them normally. We go around in circles, we do not know, even after reading the manual, if the error is corrected. We ask to go to the next error and it comes back. We think we have correct, we ask to check and it brings us the error.

But how can such expensive software work so badly?
I use it all the time because I prefer it to plugins like Restore Rig or Izotope. But since the factory preset called "Click Detection" has been added I think it will continue to garner complaints from first time users of the function. That factory preset uses the function called Digital Click Detection which is really only usable on pristine unprocessed low level material. On any normal mixes you'll get thousands of detections and an error message. With it's default settings it marks and "repairs" single samples only, which for the most part is pretty useless in most cases imo.

Use one of the other two factory presets. I think Steinberg should dump, modify, or rename the "Click Detection" factory preset, because this will probably come up again because of it.

"Go to the next error and it comes back" should not be happening in the latest version I don't think.

You can tell if an error is corrected by the green corrected markers around it, if that's set in the options.

Thank you, it should be useful. But it's disappointing. Software must do what it says it does. In any case thank you for the answer. I had to take Soundforge, which Matrix gave me with Samplitude, for the real verification, then I tested in RX. No mistake. Wavelab gives me 40!
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by cmbourget » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm

Arjan P wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:48 pm
Like Bob and Paul I use the error correction function on a regular basis as well. The issue that throws most new users is the error detection part, which you really have to adjust for your own needs. I did on some occasions in the past, but mostly use the error correction function after identifying an audible (and later visible) click or issue. And the options work great there, especially the repair <2 ms function, which I use in maybe 95% of the cases.
Ok, thanks.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by cmbourget » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:47 pm

Rat wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:08 am
Like bob99 I use it literally every project, but 'manually' ... on specific clicks etc that I identify by listening. I don't think I have ever used the auto-style 'click detection' for the reasons he outlined and some others. I also prefer it to third party options, but that comes down to personal preference.
This automatic function is more disturbing than useful, so. I wonder what Steinberg has in mind.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Rat » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:24 am

cmbourget wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:47 pm
This automatic function is more disturbing than useful, so. I wonder what Steinberg has in mind.
The auto-function ... I don't know. Classical editing maybe?

One of the terrific things about WaveLab is that it is so easy to customize it to fit your particular preferences and workflow. So for me I have only really used error correction manually to fix specific clicks (typically the 3ms pre-set) because that's the way I tend to work.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:31 am

cmbourget wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Thank you, it should be useful. But it's disappointing. Software must do what it says it does. In any case thank you for the answer. I had to take Soundforge, which Matrix gave me with Samplitude, for the real verification, then I tested in RX. No mistake. Wavelab gives me 40!
I'm not sure what you mean by Wavelab gives you 40 (40 clicks detected?), but I'll have to try out Soundforge to try and see what the differences are. Wavelab has 3 different click detection methods selectable on the Error Detection & Correction tab, and each of those has adjustable parameters, so results are going to be different depending on the parameter settings and program material. I often use Click Detection 1 and Click Detection 2 with my own settings and get good results. And I often just manually declick on the Error Detect tab too, just selecting around a click and clicking "fix".

But to me the main problem is still the other detection method, called Digital Click Detection, which is now used (unfortunately imo) in the very first Factory Preset, the Factory Preset called "Click Detection". All 3 Click Detection methods have been in there for years and haven't changed afaik, but there were never Factory Presets until recently. I gave up on Digital Click Detection many years ago because I would invariably get thousands of erroneous click detections and the error message, but I never really looked at what it was doing to get there until now. Now I have looked, and find that it's detecting and correcting single samples only, which I really didn't expect. And from what I can tell 99% of the detections are false, and 99% of the corrections are wrong.

Error Message:
Error Message.PNG
(16.51 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Detection:
Detection.PNG
(14.46 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Correction:
Correction.PNG
(16.4 KiB) Not downloaded yet
-
You can even do this on sine waves of 5 KHz and above, and the Factory Preset, run as is, detect all and correct all, will find and "fix" thousands of "clicks" in it. The Factory Preset will deform and audibly distort the sine wave waveform.

I would ask anyone to try the "Click Detection" Factory Preset, running "Detect All" and "Correct All" on a copy of a wav file, and see if you don't get something similar.

I really think the "Click Detection" Factory Preset should be removed, because it's possibly someone's first introduction to the EDC and it's really not a good start I don't think.

I'm not suggesting that the Digital Click Detection method should be removed after all this time, because it probably has use for somebody, but it has nothing to do with detecting and correcting normal program clicks. The other two methods oftentimes do very well with that.

https://steinberg.help/wavelab_pro/v9.5 ... ect_r.html

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by stingray » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:10 am

bob99 wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:31 am
...I would invariably get thousands of erroneous click detections and the error message, but I never really looked at what it was doing to get there until now. Now I have looked, and find that it's detecting and correcting single samples only, which I really didn't expect. And from what I can tell 99% of the detections are false, and 99% of the corrections are wrong.
Exactly. I've never really understood what the digital click detection is meant to be doing in this regard. The factory 'Click Detection' preset seems to have little use in my opinion. Perhaps someone could emlighten us as to how/why this preset might be useful.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Justin P » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:59 pm

I must say that I'm also underwhelmed with WaveLab's spectral repair. Yes, it's far better than your average DAW but the other day I was working on a project all "in the box" in WaveLab and heard a click.

I decided to see if I could fix it in WaveLab without using RX. I couldn't get anything to work or make sense and the detection said it didn't detect the click. So, I just opened the file in RX, did the fix, and replaced the file in my montage.

The reason I don't use WaveLab spectral editing much is that because I use REAPER for my analog processing (due to WaveLab's limitations there, I alsoI do my spectral repairs in REAPER with RX as REAPER's external editor. It's very fast to highlight a problem section, have a copy of that section open in RX, do the fix, save/overwrite the audio file (no RX file needed), toggle back to REAPER and move on.

It allows me to quickly spot fix any issues, and in REAPER it leaves a visual trail of where all the edits were incase a new mix file is involved.

Plus, I can easily toggle back to the original audio if I do not like a fix that I did and want to start over.

I'd really love to see a way for WaveLab to send files or copies of small sections to an external editing app, and have access to the old and new sections.

As of now, if I'm working exclusively with WaveLab, I usually build the montage, get things dialed in and get a feel for any noise/clicks/pops that are present.

Then I open all the files in RX, make an RX doc and fix all the noise/clicks/pops and other issues, export new files with all the fixes, and then use the File Replace feature in my WaveLab montage to populate the montage with the fixed RX versions.

Again, I think WaveLab spectral repair is of course better than nothing (what you get with Logic, Pro Tools, Cubase, Studio One etc., but I think RX still wins because it's a specialized tool and it would be great to have better integration between WaveLab and RX. RX Connect is not good either.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:57 pm

I miss the Wavelab 8.5 spectrum editor, (I still go back and use it sometimes). It's still my favorite: Define as source, define as target, copy source to target. Move backward, move forward. And I could see things better, even after trying all the Wavelab 9.5 view options. Maybe I could get that default ugly 8.5 look in 9.5, but haven't really gotten it yet. It was ugly but I could more easily see things to remove. Most of the time I remove clicks manually on the waveform view (not spectrum) using "common clicks 3ms fix", which often works well, but often also need to use spectrum copy/paste, for things I can't really see very well or fix well in the waveform view. I don't really like Izotope, and don't want to use external tools to do this. But that's just me.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by PG » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:42 pm

It's still my favorite: Define as source, define as target, copy source to target.
You can do this in WaveLab 9.5 too: see picture:
2019-04-03_22-40-34.png
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Source at left, destination at right. Press Ctrl + V to copy.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Rat » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:23 am

PG wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:42 pm
It's still my favorite: Define as source, define as target, copy source to target.
You can do this in WaveLab 9.5 too: see picture:
2019-04-03_22-40-34.png
Source at left, destination at right. Press Ctrl + V to copy.
I only recently found that ... it's very cool. We all work differently and I still love the way I can switch WL to mid/side display within spectrum editor and error correction and tame pestky stuff transparently and quickly. It's what you're used to I guess.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:10 am

bob99 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:57 pm
I don't really like Izotope, and don't want to use external tools to do this.
However, I agree with Justin that the external tool function should be improved in Wavelab to facilitate RX because it's so widely used. If one can make a selection in the session/"montage" (not the audiofile "workspace") in Reaper and have it sent/returned, then you should be able to do the same thing in Wavelab, without RX Connect. I've never had a problem with RX Connect, but it is limited to use on audio files only in Wavelab, and does have it's detractors. I've set up RX as an External Tool in Wavelab, and it doesn't work very well. It sends ok, bur won't return. It's limited to audio files, and it won't "return" the fixed file. The best I could do was "overwrite original file" in RX, which required closing the file in Wavelab, overwriting, and then reopening in Wavelab, so the function could definitely be improved to at least not have to go through that, and really should be enabled for use in the montage too.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:23 am

PG wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:42 pm
It's still my favorite: Define as source, define as target, copy source to target.
You can do this in WaveLab 9.5 too: see picture:
2019-04-03_22-40-34.png
Source at left, destination at right. Press Ctrl + V to copy.
I'm sorry PG, but I really don't like the Source at Cursor function. I find it clunky and limiting. I really just want to draw a selection around the target, move the selection to a source area, and copy paste to the target, even if I have to move the selection back to the target. I could do that in previous versions, and I think it's very limiting that it can't be done anymore. Other programs that have alternate ways of doing it like Source at Cursor, whether RX or Photoshop or anything else that works this way, still allow that basic copy paste function as well. I also liked the Define as Target, Define as Source, and Copy Source to Target buttons in 8.5, and the selection Move Backward and Move Forward buttons.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Justin P » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bob99 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:10 am
bob99 wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:57 pm
I don't really like Izotope, and don't want to use external tools to do this.
However, I agree with Justin that the external tool function should be improved in Wavelab to facilitate RX because it's so widely used. If one can make a selection in the session/"montage" (not the audiofile "workspace") in Reaper and have it sent/returned, then you should be able to do the same thing in Wavelab, without RX Connect. I've never had a problem with RX Connect, but it is limited to use on audio files only in Wavelab, and does have it's detractors. I've set up RX as an External Tool in Wavelab, and it doesn't work very well. It sends ok, bur won't return. It's limited to audio files, and it won't "return" the fixed file. The best I could do was "overwrite original file" in RX, which required closing the file in Wavelab, overwriting, and then reopening in Wavelab, so the function could definitely be improved to at least not have to go through that, and really should be enabled for use in the montage too.
Yes, and it doesn't have to be RX exclusive. Some people might want to send audio to Cedar, SoundForge, SpectraLayers, WaveLab 8.5!, or some other audio editors.

The only time I've had good luck with RX Connect is in Pro Tools AudioSuite because it's an offline process. I thought that was the best option until I tried using REAPER's external audio editor option which skips RX Connect completely and is faster/better.

I've tried using RX Connect in WaveLab on an audio file and it's too clunky. And really, this is best done right from the montage with ability to get back to the original audio if needed via a takes/playlist system.

Here's a video of how I do it in REAPER:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcvgk39tvw4i3 ... n.mov?dl=0

The first time RX opens it is slow because RX had to launch, but after RX it open, it is super fast.

It's so fast to select a small problem area in REAPER, press ENTER and a copy of that section opens in RX and is automatically focused and ready to go, I make the fix in RX, save/overwrite the file (no RX doc needed), and when I toggle back to REAPER, the fixed section is active and ready to go. I can also easily still access the original audio for that section if I need to go back or compare quickly.

I don't see it getting any better than this. I can clean up dozens of small clicks or issues in a song VERY fast with this method.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Arjan P » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:21 pm

Justin P wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:07 pm
Here's a video of how I do it in REAPER:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcvgk39tvw4i3 ... n.mov?dl=0
Looks very nice indeed. But what's with the stereo inside stereo view after RX processing? Is that a Reaper glitch?
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Justin P » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:23 pm

Arjan P wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:21 pm
Justin P wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:07 pm
Here's a video of how I do it in REAPER:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcvgk39tvw4i3 ... n.mov?dl=0
Looks very nice indeed. But what's with the stereo inside stereo view after RX processing? Is that a Reaper glitch?
I'm not sure what you mean. It could be that you're seeing both the original stereo take on top, and the copy take that is RX fixed below it. In this case, you just select which take is active for that part of the song so you have easy access to the original, and the fixed version.

The dark one isn't active, and the lighter one is active.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Arjan P » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:59 pm

Ah I see. It's two 'lanes'in Cubase speak.. Cool.
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by PG » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:25 pm

I really just want to draw a selection around the target, move the selection to a source area, and copy paste to the target, even if I have to move the selection back to the target. I could do that in previous versions, and I think it's very limiting that it can't be done anymore
This "old" procedure is still possible, as demonstrated below: (see picture):
1) draw a selection around the target
2) activate source at cursor
3) move the selection to a source area
Then you just have to trigger the copy command. This is what you request.
2019-04-04_21-20-50.png
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:47 am

PG wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:25 pm
I really just want to draw a selection around the target, move the selection to a source area, and copy paste to the target, even if I have to move the selection back to the target. I could do that in previous versions, and I think it's very limiting that it can't be done anymore
This "old" procedure is still possible, as demonstrated below: (see picture):
1) draw a selection around the target
2) activate source at cursor
3) move the selection to a source area
Then you just have to trigger the copy command. This is what you request.
2019-04-04_21-20-50.png
Thanks PG. That'll work.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:31 am

Justin P wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm
Here's a video of how I do it in REAPER:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcvgk39tvw4i3 ... n.mov?dl=0
Justin, so you make time selections in RX covering the entire frequency spectrum, and run the RX "Spectral Repair" process on them? Is that what you're doing? Seems incredibly fast.

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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by Justin P » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:58 pm

bob99 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:31 am
Justin P wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm
Here's a video of how I do it in REAPER:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcvgk39tvw4i3 ... n.mov?dl=0
Justin, so you make time selections in RX covering the entire frequency spectrum, and run the RX "Spectral Repair" process on them? Is that what you're doing? Seems incredibly fast.
Yes. In my video I am using just the Mouth De-Click module which is super magical and really only affects the higher frequencies and leaves the lower frequencies alone without harm.

When Mouth De-Click isn't right, I usually use normal De-Click and again, you can skew the processing to the higher (or lower frequencies) to help.

Of course, sometimes I do use the lasso tool and only select part of the frequency spectrum if it's something unique, but Mouth De-Click works for a majority of what I fix in a typical mastering session.

The video is a fake demonstration so I have no idea if I was fixing actual mouth clicks but you get the idea of how fast the interaction is between REAPER and RX.

It's honestly a significant reason why I use REAPER for the analog processing before finishing in WaveLab.

The best part is that doing this in REAPER, I have a clear visual map of where all the edits were made on a song. This can be helpful if a client sends a new mix of a song that needs to be fully reprocessed. It happens fairly often.

With my REAPER workflow, I've even been able to easily and safely punch-in to mixes when only one small spot changes. Or more on topic, if I did some more detailed work at the end of a song removing the click track bleed with RX, I can often preserve that little section of work because my recordings from analog are totally in sync and available for selection on the timeline.

It's really a thing of beauty.
https://www.mysteryroommastering.com/https://www.justincarlperkins.com/
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bob99
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Re: The error correction function is horrible

Post by bob99 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 am

PG wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:42 pm
It's still my favorite: Define as source, define as target, copy source to target.
You can do this in WaveLab 9.5 too: see picture:
2019-04-03_22-40-34.png
Source at left, destination at right. Press Ctrl + V to copy.
Actually I've already run into an issue with this. How do I play what I've just fixed without moving or clearing the source, because the source is now tied to the cursor, and I need to move the cursor to play? What if the source is after the target? I still think the source target capability of 8.5 should be restored for this.

Also after viewing Justin's video, it's pretty obvious that there are no processes to run on larger selections in the Wavelab spectrum like there are in RX. Declick, Denoise, Repair, etc., the whole column listed on the right. Yes you can load and open up Restore Rig in Wavelab and render in place to selections in the spectrum, but that's very difficult and inefficient compared to the way they've done it in RX with a whole list of processes that can be run on selections using shortcuts without opening the modules.

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