Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

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phainomen
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Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by phainomen » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:27 am

Wavelab stores only 2 loops as maximum in a wave file header. If a wave file had more loops than two, the additional loops are lost when file is edited and saved in Wavelab.

PG
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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by PG » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:57 pm

What do you mean? WaveLab can save more than 2 loops. I just tried 3 loops (green markers), and they open fine in SoundForge, for example.
Philippe

phainomen
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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by phainomen » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:13 pm

Yes, I know that, I tested it when the loops were created in Wavelab. I saved more than 60 loops in one file without problems. But, the loops were created by Wavelab. The other way round did not work for my files. Creating loops in different editor (smpl chunk loops, I think, they are called, but I am not tech expert on wav header).
I will show you precisely, but the best way would be submitting a sample having the loops before and after editing in Wavelab. Is there a way to append wave files to the posts? I am sorry, I was not using Wavelab before and I did not use this forum before, so, I do not know how to submit sample files (very short files, no worries) as examples what it happening. I will write also full report on how to reproduce the error I am experiencing, then. I will be very happy to do that, because I would like Wavelab to become more usable for my projects. I love the power of the batch processing, that is far better than any other audio editor (since it can process whole trees of directories at the same time, no other tool is capable of this so far).

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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by PG » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:56 pm

You can attach files to a thread or private message, if small.
Philippe

phainomen
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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by phainomen » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:27 pm

I have prepared small file, called 3loopsBefore.wav. It contains three loops, which are intersecting. I.e. First loop starts, then second loop starts, then first loop ends, then third loop starts, then second loop ends, then third loop ends. A picture is illustrating the intersecting loops.
Before_3loopsIntersecting.jpg
Three loops before entering Wavelab.
(14.24 KiB) Not downloaded yet
You can open the file in multi-loop-capable software, such as Adobe Audition 3.0 (obsolete but still working), or in LoopAuditioneer (freeware from SourceForge), to check that there are indeed three intersecting loops.

Now, I opened this file in Wavelab 9.5. Already after opening you can see that something is wrong, only two loops are seen. OK, simply "save as" 3loopsAfter.wav. No editing is necessary, only save as. The result is again illustrated by a picture.
After_2loopsNested.jpg
Two loops interpreted and saved by Wavelab.
(13.91 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Now, open the 3loopsAfter.wav in a multi-loop-capable software, and see that Wavelab corrupted the loops in two ways:
1. only two loops are now saved in the file. The third loop was omitted.
3. the loops are not intersecting! Instead, the loops are now nested, i.e. first loop starts, second loop starts, second loop ends, first loop ends. The endings of loops were freely mixed up by Wavelab.

THis is not desired behavior, loops should be interpreted and saved without any corruption by Wavelab. I realize that this is very difficult, because wavelab probably does not have any way how to tell which loop start belongs to which loop end, this is a major limitation which should be removed from Wavelab, since loop start always form specific pair with its loop end, and loop ends cannot be freely mixed to ANY existing loop start.
I judge from looking at the .mrk file generated by Wavelab, since there is no way how to tell which marker start belong to which marker end. This could be probably improved for the future Wavelab versions.
Attachments
3loops.rar
Wave files used in the example. Please see yourself by opening the files in multi-loop capable audio editor.
(626.95 KiB) Downloaded 28 times

PG
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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by PG » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 am

Thanks for your files. Several remarks:
* I don't have audition 3, but audition 2017 display no loop at all.
* SoundForge displays only 2 loops, same as WaveLab. But when looking "inside", yes your files embeds 3 loops. But WaveLab only supports 2.
* LoopAuditioneer: this software does not work for me: the Open menu remain gray.

I don't know yet what will be possible in a future WaveLab version, but you are in a corner case (LoopAuditioneer is recorded as downloaded 15 times all together since 2016).

I would like to know how you use all these overlapping loops.
Philippe

phainomen
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Re: Wavelab destroys loops in wave file header

Post by phainomen » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:14 am

Many audio editors have limitations in loops, not only Wavelab. It is the old Audition which was the most versatile audio editor ever. Unfortunately, the more it departed from the original CoolEdit, the less useful it is for special jobs. Unfortunately, yes, I am a cornercase with my research.

The multiple loops can be used in some samplers to make the sound less repeating when played back. If only single loop is played over and over, it becomes repetitive soon for the human ear. The loops have to be overlapping, so that the software can randomly travel through them when played back. One such software is GrandOrgue (also on SourceForge).

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