Export longer than film

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:30 pm

It is possible that the mistake originates outside of Nuendo. But how can it be an outside error, if Nuendo interprets the length of a wav file, that was exported from Nuendo, differently according to what frame rate is set in the project. At the very least, the film file from the editor need to have corrupted something in the Nuendo project. And this corruption makes it in some kind of meta data into the wav file.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:41 pm

Max Stirner wrote:how can it be an outside error, if Nuendo interprets the length of a wav file, that was exported from Nuendo, differently according to what frame rate is set in the project.
You lost me now. And I've only had one beer... so far...

The length of the audio file is what it is according to the amount of samples and sample rate. The time code is just a division of that into frames per second. Basically what I'm saying is 'how do you know it's interpreting it differently from the project frame rate?'....
Max Stirner wrote: At the very least, the film file from the editor need to have corrupted something in the Nuendo project. And this corruption makes it in some kind of meta data into the wav file.
I honestly don't see how that could be the case though. Surely the two engines (audio/video) are decoupled enough for that not to happen. Besides, I had a discrepancy as well when looking at a project / audio files that worked all the way through production, so it'd be odd if we'd see "the same thing" yet it'd work for me and not for you.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:53 pm

"Basically what I'm saying is 'how do you know it's interpreting it differently from the project frame rate?"

I have exported this wav file from a Nuendo project. The result is a simple wav file with 48kHz sample rate. Whatever the film file in that project does, should not matter. Maybe it does not have the same length as the editor's session, or maybe I have set the frame rate wrong. Maybe I have even pulled the session up or down. The result is still a wav file with 48kHz.

Now I am making a new project in Nuendo with 23.98fps and import the file at 00:00:00:00 the file now ends at 1:28:44:10. I close Nuendo and create a new project next. This time with 24fps. I again import the wav file and put it in at 00:00:00:00. This time the file ends at 01:28:49:17.

How is that possible? It is the same file now having a different length, more than 5s longer, because I changed the sample rate of the Nuendo project. Whether I divide a second into 23.98 frames or 24 frames, it is still a second. The only place where I would not be surprised to see a difference is at the very last two digits, because that is where the frames are counted. And incidentally, now it has the length that all other programs say the file has.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:18 pm

Ah, I see your point now. I'm going to make some coffee and think on this......
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:37 am

The files that you receive from FCPx can have incorrect embedded metadata in the header.

If you make a 44.1kHz file "think" (change header) that it is a 48kHz file, then you wll have the exact same problems.
And you won't be able to solve the problem, except by changing the header information.
Just do a small test with this application and to see what happens when a file has a wrong header.
http://www.railjonrogut.com/HeaderInvestigator.htm

So, I think that in some way you are facing the same problem.

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:49 am

Thanks for that Fredo. Unfortunately I do not have a Windows computer. Does anyone know a good similar software for mac?

What header information would I be looking for though? In both the 23.98fps session and the 24fps one I had a sample rate of 48kHz. So no matter what the header says about the sample rate of the wav file, it should at least have the same length, even if it is the wrong length. Is there any header information that stores fps?
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:46 am

Now I am making a new project in Nuendo with 23.98fps and import the file at 00:00:00:00 the file now ends at 1:28:44:10. I close Nuendo and create a new project next. This time with 24fps. I again import the wav file and put it in at 00:00:00:00. This time the file ends at 01:28:49:17.
I can repro that here....and I can repro it not only with your audio file but also with a mixfile of another 90 min project....
I do not think that your audio is in any way wrong (header etc).
i think Nuendo on 23.98fps does something we do not expect.....But what exactly?

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by ChrisPolus » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:23 am

@Max, on the Mac I use MediaInfo (http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo) from the Mac App Store. It's a $1 tool and shows you all the media info there is I think. Downside is that you cannot change the header info, just read it. Very handy when working with video files as it shows the used compression format, fps, etc to figure out what's going on.

I also use AudioFinder (http://icedaudio.com) that has a file info tab and is a simple and cost efficient SoundMiner replacement.

Or Myriad, great analysis and batch process tool (http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/my ... index.html) that also has extensive file properties display.

All say the same though for the file you uploaded. The file is Mono, 48kHz, 24Bits, 01:28:49.740.
My empty Nuendo project says
@23.98fps:___1:28:44:09
@24.00fps:___1:28:49:18
@24.98fps:___1:28:44:10
@25.00fps:___1:28:49:18
@29.97fps:___1:28:44:12
@29.97dfps:__1:28:49:22 (what's dfps?)
@30.00fps:___1:28:49:22
@30.00dfps:__1:28:55:02
...

I think this is a Nuendo calculation issue. The question is, what's the real length! Audio has no fps, it only has samples per second. 44.1kHz, 48kHz per second. So a file has a defined length that's NOT tied to the fps. It's the speed with which you play those samples that defines the length. Do you play it at 44.1 or 48? So I don't know where those strange differences in seconds come from when switching fps in Nuendo's Project Setup window.

I exported this WAV file in 24/48 both in 30fps and 29.97fps. Nuendo shows a different length, but after export both files are, of course, the same length. Same amount of samples. And both times the length is shown identical in all the softwares mentioned above. Something feels wrong here in the length calculation!
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by fenderchris » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:22 pm

dfps=Drop Frames Per Second
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:56 pm

Thanks for the replies. I will check out the app on the Mac.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:21 am

When it comes to the duration reading Pro Tools behaves the same; if you select 23.98 and "bounce"/"consolidate" a region from 01:00:00:00 to 02:05:00:00, then of course the duration is 01:05:00:00. If you then leave the region where it is and change to 30fps drop, the duration is 01:05:07:25.

However, any frame of reference other than "timecode", like minutes:seconds, bars:beats, samples etc retains duration as you change the timecode. This is true for both Nuendo and PT. So I'm inclined to think that we all need to drink more coffee and that Nuendo is doing this correctly after all.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:44 am

This is true for both Nuendo and PT. So I'm inclined to think that we all need to drink more coffee and that Nuendo is doing this correctly after all.
But what could the coffee make us lern? What is the difference between the Frame Rates with whole numbers 24/25/30, where seconds stay the same, as we expect. And the other ones where we get more ore less seconds for the same lengh?


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Re: Export longer than film

Post by ChrisPolus » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:11 pm

Oswald Schwander wrote: But what could the coffee make us lern? What is the difference between the Frame Rates with whole numbers 24/25/30, where seconds stay the same, as we expect. And the other ones where we get more ore less seconds for the same lengh?
This is indeed an interesting technical question. Understanding how this internally works helps avoiding confusion in the future. And learning is always helpful. So I'd be interested what's behind this, too. Why is timecode different than time other than that it shows frames rather than milliseconds and is absolute rather than relative? And why is 24/25/30 timecode different compared to the .98 counterparts?

Apart from that, I'd like to quickly revisit the original question.
Max Stirner wrote:can someone explain the following. I am working on a feature film. The mp4 of the film is exactly 01:28:44:10 long at a frame rate of 23.98fps ... I have exported a stereo downmix of this film and send it to the editor. He complained that the wav file is a bit longer than the film and therefore out of sync. And indeed the length of the stereo wav export is 01:28:49.741 (741 being ms). However, when I import this stereo export into my Nuendo session, it syncs up exactly with the length of the film. Where do the extra 5+s come from and go respectively?
From all I've read here it seems to be only a display issue, where different framerates show a slightly different time in the timecode display. But what is described here is that the editor says the sound was out of sync. So I'm wondering if the sound then is really out of sync?

My theory: Probably the editor just looked at the length of the file outside of his software and saw a different time length than what he sees as timecode in his project. Which would explain the confusion and rejection. Had the editor imported the file and checked, he/she would have seen that it aligns perfectly with the project.

Is that assumption correct? Apparently .98 timecode is calculated a little differently. But when the editor imports the file, it should align and be in sync.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Max Stirner » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:20 pm

I think the different timecode displays and the fact that the audio was out of sync in the editor's session are probably two different issues. It just so happened that I discovered these different timecode displays through the fact that he complained about the sync. But the out of sync is probably a problem on his part. But I can only tell that for sure, once I understand the different timecode displays.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:48 pm

To narrow it down the the essence.

if the length of the audio matches the BITC, then there is no problem on your side.

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:52 pm

ChrisPolus wrote:Why is timecode different than time other than that it shows frames rather than milliseconds and is absolute rather than relative? And why is 24/25/30 timecode different compared to the .98 counterparts?
So I had some coffee (and also pooped) and thought about this, and I think the problem is that we're focusing on audio. If Timecode is the numbering of frames in video, then it all makes sense with that frame of reference. If you have exactly 24 frames in one second, then on the 25th frame it will roll over to the next second. If you have 50 frames it'll roll over to the next second on the 51st frame.

So in other words it all makes complete sense if we view it that way. The only time it gets "weird" is when we select a timecode for a video that has a different framerate. Then we get a mismatch that no longer makes sense. But any audio recorded with that original video will have the same duration. Both will. The timecode just tells us at what rate the video was captured and how the frames are numbered.

Did that make sense? Or do I need more coffee/pooping?
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by fenderchris » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:32 pm

Mattias, you already had us at 'coffee', we don't need to think about anything else ;)
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:50 pm

The rest was a bonus.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by ChrisPolus » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:01 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:The rest was a bonus.
Especially the pooping ;)
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Fredo » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:56 pm

Too much information ....

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by fenderchris » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:05 pm

Fredo wrote:Too much information ....
Exactly.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:36 am

I think what makes our heads dizzy is that we are used to think that TImeCode is identical with time. As is the case with the full number frame rates 24/25/30.
But with the 23.98 etc. it is different. TC is not identical with time here.
Thats the reason why dropframe was invented.

@23.98fps:___1:28:44:09
@24.00fps:___1:28:49:18
@29.97fps:___1:28:44:12
@29.97dfps:__1:28:49:22

The dropframe in 29.97dfps makes the file to have the real lengh (1:28:49), will say to match time.
I our case (23.98fps) there is no dropframe, will say TC can not match time.

Who ever wants it described better...
https://documentation.apple.com/en/fina ... tasks=true

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by ChrisPolus » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:22 am

Awesome Oswald. I was looking for something like that but couldn't find it. My search term "drop frames per second" was probably not well chosen. Thanks, makes total sense.
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Re: Export longer than film

Post by Oswald Schwander » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:23 pm

Hi Chris

I posted our question at a sounddesigner newsgroup based in Germany. They came up with the link. As you might be german speaking, you could be interested to join:
sound_design_germany@yahoogroups.de

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Re: Export longer than film

Post by ChrisPolus » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Ich guck mal rein, hab mich grad mal angemeldet. Danke.
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