ITB Tracking?

Post general topics related to Nuendo 7 here.
User avatar
MattiasNYC
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4259
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by MattiasNYC »

When I was talking about phasing I meant between cue signal and live room acoustics. It'd only appear with bleed into the headphones I guess.
Nuendo 10.2.2 build 396 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.6GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo ::::: RX Post Production Suite 4 / DaVinci Resolve

User avatar
Rickard
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:33 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Rickard »

I don't think phasing between cans and live room would make much difference. It would be like pre-delaying a verb or not. The initial attack still informs you of the timing. The live room could be a bedroom or a big sound stage and the initial attack in the phones would still be the same.

Dean
Win10|i7|16gig ram|Orion 32+ with Madiface USB|N10|PT10 HD|UAD Quad x2| UM-3EX|Midex 8|Mackie Control + 2 extenders|too many mics and preamps to list

Getalife2
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:32 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Getalife2 »

Lydiot wrote:Part of the supposed problems seem more like issues with phase, or "phasing", than anything else. If that's the case I wonder what the relationship between direct signal and cue mix is. If it's 100% cue mix I doubt there's really a problem.

When I've played using a PA system it's never been a big problem, and I've certainly been further away than 3m.

Come on guys. I'm not really talking about speakers. I'm mostly talking about headphones and the unique hearing environment they create. Though higher latency will matter to a great player in a studio under exacting expectations it's really headphones that present the bigger challenge.

Because, for instance, when you're hearing and feeling your voice via bone conduction and torso vibration and at the same time hearing it 10 ms (or whatever) later, it can get weird. Spend some time with a good singer in the cans exploring this concept and see what you think for yourself, which is what matters.

You can obviously dismiss these possibilities without the consideration due. Many do.
N10.3 - i7 5960X/32 GB at 4 GHz Win 7 Pro 64bit - 2x RME MADI - 3X UAD-2 Quad

User avatar
MattiasNYC
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4259
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by MattiasNYC »

Rickard wrote:I don't think phasing between cans and live room would make much difference. It would be like pre-delaying a verb or not.
Not really. A reverb contains very little of the original signal compared to the rest you get back in your cans. Every single time I've recorded myself it's by far mostly me and very little reverb. If the reverb - which is a time based effect to begin with, is delayed, then there's is little consequence. Delaying the original "dry" signal component of the sound has a much bigger effect.

Also I'd say that perhaps it's worse for some than for others depending on resonance. I'm a sax player and my mouthpiece makes my entire skull vibrate, same for singers. Our sound never is what we hear when we perform. So I think it stands to reason that there may be different problems there.
Rickard wrote:The initial attack still informs you of the timing. The live room could be a bedroom or a big sound stage and the initial attack in the phones would still be the same.

Dean
Yes, but if there's a difference between the two it makes a difference. In other words if all of what you get is in the cans, i.e. no acoustics or resonances, then I really wonder how big a deal a millisecond here or there is. Because if it is a big deal then again where you place the amp is important simply because it delays the sound the further away it is. If that's not a problem acoustically in a space then if the cans are 100% of the sound the person hears then the delay can't be much of a problem I think.

This isn't really only a hypothetical: For years guitar players have been shredding on stage, anywhere from a couple of meters to, well, say 10 for a bigger concert. I think that's in the range of 6 to 30 milliseconds, and they seem to have been able to perform quite well. So with that perspective....
Nuendo 10.2.2 build 396 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.6GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo ::::: RX Post Production Suite 4 / DaVinci Resolve

User avatar
MattiasNYC
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 4259
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by MattiasNYC »

Getalife2 wrote:Come on guys. I'm not really talking about speakers. I'm mostly talking about headphones and the unique hearing environment they create. Though higher latency will matter to a great player in a studio under exacting expectations it's really headphones that present the bigger challenge.

Because, for instance, when you're hearing and feeling your voice via bone conduction and torso vibration and at the same time hearing it 10 ms (or whatever) later, it can get weird. Spend some time with a good singer in the cans exploring this concept and see what you think for yourself, which is what matters.

You can obviously dismiss these possibilities without the consideration due. Many do.
I actually didn't dismiss anything without due consideration. I'm a sax player and resonance, or "bone conduction" is something I'm very familiar with. All I'm saying is that if I'm on stage I get instantaneous sound from the bones and a delayed signal from the foldback. The latter is obviously delayed, and more than what is acceptable according to some. I just disagree. It's never caused a problem for me.

I agree though that clearly there's a line to be drawn somewhere. I just don't ever ever trust singers :P
Nuendo 10.2.2 build 396 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.6GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo ::::: RX Post Production Suite 4 / DaVinci Resolve

Getalife2
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:32 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Getalife2 »

Lydiot wrote:
I agree though that clearly there's a line to be drawn somewhere. I just don't ever ever trust singers :P

Ouch, you obviously found the Achilles Heal of my argument!
N10.3 - i7 5960X/32 GB at 4 GHz Win 7 Pro 64bit - 2x RME MADI - 3X UAD-2 Quad

User avatar
Rickard
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:33 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Rickard »

Lydiot, I think we are saying the same thing. If the initial attack is right (ie no latency), the effect becomes irrelevant unless it is just too loud. Reverb effects can give you the delayed first bounce just like a real room will, for the purposes of feeling latency, and I have never felt those kind of reflections bother my sense of where the time is, in the same way that latency in the cans from a delayed direct signal does.

If I heard myself 30ms after I played I don't think I could play very well. Those guitarists most likely have monitors that cut down that time and/or they have figured out how to compensate through experience. I have had to ignore the horn player or singer who takes a mike out into the audience because they are not compensating.

I have had to fix latency problems with live recordings and good musicians many times. It can sometimes be a big problem if too much bleed creates phase issues from moving tracks.

Dean
Win10|i7|16gig ram|Orion 32+ with Madiface USB|N10|PT10 HD|UAD Quad x2| UM-3EX|Midex 8|Mackie Control + 2 extenders|too many mics and preamps to list

User avatar
Rotund
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 8:37 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Rotund »

OK, I just had a huge breakthrough with TotalMix FX. I figured out how to send hardware inputs to multiple hardware outputs simultaneously. Something I needed to do to set up multiple headphone mixes.

I know, it sounds like something that should be as easy as pie but it is not intuitive at all. Turns out all you have to do is select the hardware output from the bottom of the input channel popup and then actually raise the fader to turn the send on. After you do that, it shows in the routing popup as a send with a little arrow next to it and signal gets to where it is supposed to. If you don't raise the fader it doesn't turn on. Then, when you select another hardware output from the input channel popup, it remembers the setting for the previous one. Weird but effective.

This solves all the problems I was having. Thanks to everyone who chimed in here.
Inboard:
Win7Pro 64Bit, i7 3770k, Gigabyte Z77-UHD5, 12gb Corsair (1600Mhz), Nuendo+Nek 6.5, Reaper 4.591, Samplitude Pro X2, Studio One 3.5, CD Architect 5.2, RME Raydat, UAD PCIe Quad+Duo.

Outboard:
Moog Model D (Vintage), Sub 37, Minitaur, Slim Phatty, DSI OB-6 Desktop, Prophet Rev2 8 Voice, Roland Integra 7, SE-02, Korg Prologue 16, Triton Le, Boss Dr. Rhythm DR-55, Sound Gizmo.

Oliver.Lucas
Senior Member
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: ITB Tracking?

Post by Oliver.Lucas »

Getalife2 wrote:
Lydiot wrote:Part of the supposed problems seem more like issues with phase, or "phasing", than anything else. If that's the case I wonder what the relationship between direct signal and cue mix is. If it's 100% cue mix I doubt there's really a problem.

When I've played using a PA system it's never been a big problem, and I've certainly been further away than 3m.

Come on guys. I'm not really talking about speakers. I'm mostly talking about headphones and the unique hearing environment they create. Though higher latency will matter to a great player in a studio under exacting expectations it's really headphones that present the bigger challenge.

Because, for instance, when you're hearing and feeling your voice via bone conduction and torso vibration and at the same time hearing it 10 ms (or whatever) later, it can get weird. Spend some time with a good singer in the cans exploring this concept and see what you think for yourself, which is what matters.

You can obviously dismiss these possibilities without the consideration due. Many do.
Headphones can be very annoying to play/sing with. I agree. That's why many performers like to take one side off. But that's been the case since the days of analog mixing desks. The electrical signals in the analog days were pretty fast, so latency is unlikely to be the issue as long as it is below a value that might differ with individuals.
My rule of thumb is 8ms. I have never heard any complaints.

If it does not work it might be worth checking if there is any other reason for additional added latencies. (Are you routing via studio sends?, Are there active plugins that add latency? Try "constrain delay compensation". Do you use any hardware (e.g inserted limiters or routing matrixes that cause latency?)

Latency was an issue years ago, but in 2015 I feel really confident to say that it's not anymore with a fairly recent computer. (I have mid 2010 cheese graters by the way and have just recorded a fusion jazz trio with 16 tracks simultaniously without any latency problems, all routings ITB, CPUs very relaxed, dare I say bored by the task....)

Ollie
Main machine: Fireface UFX+ 64GB, 2TB Hecacore macmini 10.14.x, egpu
Avid ProTools Ulitimate and S3. A gazillion plugings
https://aufnahme.myds.me

Post Reply

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest