[ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

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MattiasNYC
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Nuendo 7 is awesome!

Just wanted to make that clear in case someone thinks I'm just whining. If Solo/Mute is the only thing that makes it to the VCAs then I'm fine with it, and all other added features are fantastic as far as I can see. I can't see a single DAW being better than this one.

I'm quite happy about it.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Lydiot wrote:I still don't see how a rec button is confusing or bad for functionality if it works like solo/mute.
Without losing myself into details, and limiting the discussion to the "logic" behind VCA faders:
It is possible to include FX tracks and/or Group tracks within a VCA group.
None of these tracks have a "record" function.
So therefore it is not logical at all that the VCA fader has a rec-arm button.

Just out of curiosity, why is it that the old fashioned "linking" is a problem for you?
So, why don't you link the channels (there are plenty of options to only link a few parameters) to rec-arm your tracks.
Why do you want to do this at all cost with VCA faders?
Just asking, not arguing.


Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:I still don't see how a rec button is confusing or bad for functionality if it works like solo/mute.
Without losing myself into details, and limiting the discussion to the "logic" behind VCA faders:
It is possible to include FX tracks and/or Group tracks within a VCA group.
None of these tracks have a "record" function.
So therefore it is not logical at all that the VCA fader has a rec-arm button.
I don't think that makes it illogical at all. If a track can't be record armed then it won't be record armed.
Fredo wrote:Just out of curiosity, why is it that the old fashioned "linking" is a problem for you?
So, why don't you link the channels (there are plenty of options to only link a few parameters) to rec-arm your tracks.
Why do you want to do this at all cost with VCA faders?
Just asking, not arguing.


Fredo
I think I wrote it earlier. It's about ease of use and managing large projects. If I use the linking feature you talk about then obviously I need to navigate to the tracks in question in order to press record on one of them. This is exactly the same thing as pressing solo. If I were to use "linking" then I have to actually find a track within that link-group and press its solo button. Why are we letting solo be a part of VCAs if we can do it with linking? Exactly the same reason: It's easier. You have your VCAs in one place, and you can access whatever "group of tracks" you need at any time by just using that one VCA channel. Putting all drum tracks into record for a punch-in, or all stems in a post mix, is easy, because the VCA for those tracks sits next to all the other "food groups" of tracks (i.e. guitars, keyboards, vocals, sound effects, dialog, whatever).

It's about navigation when it comes to the buttons. It's about more when it comes to volume control. But I hope you at least agree that "rec" is exactly the same in that respect as "mute" and "solo", right? If we can use linking for rec, we can use it for solo and mute, right?

So why the difference?
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

Lydiot wrote:I still don't see how a rec button is confusing or bad for functionality if it works like solo/mute.

For example: "Return to start position at stop" (transport) is something that affects all users. You press play, you press stop, and what then happens affects us all. It makes sense to have a preference and/or toggle switch.

In the case of a VCA button it only becomes an active function if you press it. Don't want to trigger rec of all tracks from the VCA they belong to? Don't push the button. You don't need a preference for it. You only need to not push a button.

If engineers today can't not push a big red button in a DAW then, oh well.... this is supposed to be a "pro" application I tell myself at least....
Chill......

Have you NOT ever touched a wrong button in a DAW by accident?
To hit the record button for multiple tracks in VCA group is one thing you do NOT want to do by accident.

Engineers today..................... he he. I am a retired (or reached the riterement age) audio engineer (40 years +) :lol: Supposed to be a "pro" ;) :D :lol: :mrgreen:

PS. I have also used Nuendo since v1.6 and Cubase SX, so................. Chill ;)

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by twelvetwelve »

I'm with Lydiot on this one. Again I will say look towards PT - they have had VCA faders for a long time now and have had enough user reports and feedback to get that feature right. Why re-invent the wheel?

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Grabber wrote:Chill......

Have you NOT ever touched a wrong button in a DAW by accident?
To hit the record button for multiple tracks in VCA group is one thing you do NOT want to do by accident.

Engineers today..................... he he. I am a retired (or reached the riterement age) audio engineer (40 years +) :lol: Supposed to be a "pro" ;) :D :lol: :mrgreen:

PS. I have also used Nuendo since v1.6 and Cubase SX, so................. Chill ;)
I am chill.

I can still press "rec" by mistake on the audio tracks. In the project window there's the settings for what is shown on the tracks, including buttons. So "yes", I agree that it could be something set in a preference. But I just don't think your argument holds. "Record" surely is one of the more important functions of a DAW (or console) and I'd never ever not pay a large amount of attention to what channel I'm pressing "rec" on. With color coding this is even less of an issue. You could make the whole channel red as a traffic light and none of the others need to have that color. That's how I've set up my templates, with all my outputs through which my stems go in bright red. I NEVER touch them. If I see red, I know to stay away.

I just think you're making this into a way bigger issue than it needs to be.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

likelystory wrote:I'm with Lydiot on this one. Again I will say look towards PT - they have had VCA faders for a long time now and have had enough user reports and feedback to get that feature right. Why re-invent the wheel?
I think there is truth to the above.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

Lydiot wrote:I just think you're making this into a way bigger issue than it needs to be.
Or you into a lesser one................ ;)

And yes, I know the color red is often representing Danger, Danger, Watch Out :)

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Lydiot wrote:If I use the linking feature you talk about then obviously I need to navigate to the tracks in question in order to press record on one of them.
Well, depends on the way you stick things into your head. (For your use anyway)

Why do you think of a VCA fader as a sort of "master" fader which controls other faders?
Would'nt it work in the same way if the VCA fader was *part* of that group?

And why do you think you have to select one of the linked faders to activate something, while you can as easily create an extra dummy which is suppose to control the rest?

If I were you, I would create a folder or, or an area, where I put a bunch of dummy faders -or isolated faders- that control different functions. And name them accordingly. "Rec arm drums" "volume harmonies" "breaks mute"

Quick overview, no hassle, and virtually unlimited linking optIons(what to link and what not).
Wouldn't that give you more, and easier options than VCA's?

Don't get me wrong, I am not discussing for the sake of having an argument, I just think that:
A) there are more convenient options to achieve what you want to do
B) i am very found of the idea to totally separate the functioning of VCA's from grouping or linking, because most of the people already have a hard time understaning what the difference is between grouping/linking and VCA's. There is absolutely no relationship between both functions, so IMO, anything, any function that in some way suggests that it *is* a sort of linking, should be avoided.

A VCA sort of "trims" the volume of any fader within that VCA group, and any fader which is part if that group can be controlled individually without affecting any other fader within that VCA group, or the "master VCA fader". Entering or leaving a VCA group has no effect whatsoever to that or any other fader.
That is the basic philiosophy of VCA's.

But again, this is my personal opinion.
And I can see, and understand, your point of view.
We just have different opinions. And don't worry, I have no influence on the decisionmakers.

Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo,

Just explain why you would make an exception for solo/mute, yet not include record. For solo/mute you could make exactly the same argument you just did against them being included.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Lydiot wrote:Fredo,

Just explain why you would make an exception for solo/mute, yet not include record. For solo/mute you could make exactly the same argument you just did against them being included.
For checking "on the fly" which faders you are actually controlling (trimming)with your VCA fader.
Soloing gives you the isolated group, and muting allows you to check that there isn't any channel "forgotten" within the VCA group. And at the same time, you can still solo or mute any individual channel within that group, without affecting the others.

Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by twelvetwelve »

If the VCA fader routing wasn't located in the rack and instead was above the fader like in Cubase you would be able to check "on the fly" which faders you are actually controlling with the VCA.

Please Steinberg, take a look at what PT does with VCAs and borrow those concepts.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Allow me to disagree.
There is a big difference between visually checking all of the channels to see to which VCA group they belong, and soloing the group and listening to what's in it.
When I solo my gunshots VCA group, i may only hear gunshots, and when I mute that group, I shouldn't hear any gunshots. That's the point of solo/mute on the VCA groups. Being sure that you are trimming the correct faders.
Remember that VCA's are often used "ad hoc", to trim "a bunch of channels".

An example, suppose you have a War scene with heavy shooting, and DX and music, and walla, and helicopters, and, and .... At some point, you want to lift the heavy breathing of a fallen soldier. But you are already at the limit, and you cannot push the breathing further up. At that moment you assing everything but the breathing to a VCA, and lower all individual tracks at that soecific point. Sure I want to know if I have selected everything, and sure I am going to mute that group, just to be sure that only the breathing is left.

Just making up stuff here ... Don't pick on details.
:)

Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by twelvetwelve »

I still think Lydiot is on point with this (you could argue you could accomplish the same with a link group for on-the-fly checking) and once again, PT has had these [VCA faders] for years with user feedback. If they work so well for PT (and they do - at this point I much prefer their implementation to Nuendo) then why would you not borrow those concepts which have been tried and tested.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by stingray »

likelystory wrote:If the VCA fader routing wasn't located in the rack and instead was above the fader like in Cubase...
IMO the Nuendo implementation could be improved by doing something similar. Same functionality but put the VCA fader assignments in the fader section above the faders where it belongs, not in the rack. This would improve the logic and visual clarity.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Grabber »

As far as I know, Mute and Solo Automation has always been a part of the VCA system. NOT record arm or other options more suited in the Group/Link feature set.

Fredo: "i am very found of the idea to totally separate the functioning of VCA's from grouping or linking, because most of the people already have a hard time understaning what the difference is between grouping/linking and VCA's. There is absolutely no relationship between both functions, so IMO, anything, any function that in some way suggests that it *is* a sort of linking, should be avoided. "

To the above I agree.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by stingray »

Grabber wrote:As far as I know, Mute and Solo Automation has always been a part of the VCA system. NOT record arm or other options more suited in the Group/Link feature set.

Fredo: "i am very found of the idea to totally separate the functioning of VCA's from grouping or linking, because most of the people already have a hard time understaning what the difference is between grouping/linking and VCA's. There is absolutely no relationship between both functions, so IMO, anything, any function that in some way suggests that it *is* a sort of linking, should be avoided. "

To the above I agree.
Yes, there's nothing wrong with clarity of functionality, KISS design and all the rest, but there are also the issues of intuitive workflow and flexibility to take into consideration. VCA fader functionality has been well established in hardware mixers a long time ago but this doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best way to do it in software. The Pro Tools VCA fader design could be viewed as an attempt to improve the concept and IMO it works very well. I understand the arguments for maintaining separate functionality between VCAs, grouping and linking but we have to be careful this does not stifle innovation, or cripple visual clarity on the GUI.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

stingray wrote: ...but we have to be careful this does not stifle innovation....
That would be correct if we were talking about functionality that can't be achieved with the tools already available.

Fredo

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by benoit »

dear all,

i agree with fredo here.
back in the days, i've been working for many years on analog desks (still having 2 old ladies here), most of them beeing loaded with vca-faders. of course, no way to arm the A820- or 3324-tracks directly from the console then, which seemed nothing but logical.
the straight way for me - even if i understand very well that the paradigm may have changed, and that a controller do offer functions an analog desk didn't have.

btw - loving the new features in NU7!

cheers,
benoit
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Getalife2 »

Many aspects and their implementation for Nuendo are directly derived from the Euphonix System 5. Automation is nearly identical. Control Room, as well. Martin Stahl did an excellent job of interfacing between SB and Euphonix and much of Nuendo's Eucon goodness is to his credit. I bring that up in this discussion because I believe those reference points become pertinent in the discussion. Namely, taking cues for the software from excellent hardware. In many aspects, like a plugin, Nuendo emulates/models a System 5.

And so, do we limit VCA implementation to a "traditional" approach? There was no such idea about many innovative Nuendo features in the past. As an example, there is more than one way to control "VCA Groups" on a Sys 5. One of them, that is often overlooked. is that when you have designated a channel as Group Master, it becomes in effect a VCA Fader, but actually much more. Mute/Solo....of course. But actually, the Group Master channel retains all parameters from a regular channel. As such, it can Globally adjust all like parameters in the Slave channels. And does so retaining relative settings, in the case of Send/Level/Freq/Boost/Cut, etc

A simple example: You decide all of the Slave Channels would be better off with a Hi Pass at 100 Hz. Engage the Hi Pass and set to 100 Hz on the Master.

Another example: You decide that the entirety of the controlled channels feel a little too dark. Engage the Hi Band of the EQ Master Channel and add +3 dB. All channels will increase HF Gain by 3 dB, starting from the current position.

One more thing. Yes, you can do what I describe from Linked Status. But not exactly. Because the Master Channel is not impacted by changes to individual channels, whereas Linked channels interact. It's a one way street, leaving you with instant access to individual control or Master control without the need to toggle, etc.

The Master Channel concept of the Sys 5 is brilliant, though few I've seen really use it. It consolidates anything you want to do to controlled channel into a single place, including all parameters (yes that means Rec Arm) and does it in a way that is elegant. Add unlimited Nesting and it really is all that.

I've mixed on about every console type ever made with any sort of VCA control, starting with Melquist add-on faders in a Trident Series 80 in the early 80's. Flying Faders/SSL/Calrec and so forth. Euphonix Sys 5 is BRILLIANT in that aspect. SB could do much worse than continuing to emulate it's best features. And to me, a Master Fader that controls all aspects of Slave Channels is one of those brilliant features. I do wish someone would have asked me about it. I think I could do a pretty convincing show and tell. :)

Anyway, hopefully you see my point. As it now appears, a very long point.

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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo wrote:
stingray wrote: ...but we have to be careful this does not stifle innovation....
That would be correct if we were talking about functionality that can't be achieved with the tools already available.

Fredo
I think that's a debatable definition of "innovation" though. If "innovation" can't be anything that could "be achieved with the tools already available" then that would make a whole lot of things "not innovation". But who cares? It's clearly an improvement. You could achieve your goal of verifying the members of a VCA in different ways already. Rather than pressing "solo" on your VCA to verify what tracks are members of it you could simply solo the tracks that should be members and then drag the VCA fader down. If the fader mutes all sound then all soloed tracks belong to the VCA. See? Same outcome different method. (and yes, I understand that was an example off the top of your head)

But of course you'd never promote that workflow over just pressing solo on the VCA, because the latter is easier. And that's the whole point. If it's easier to do something one way, why not include that as an option.

Now, in addition to that I don't disagree with you that the other way of doing what I suggested is possible and good for some people. But if you want to set up "dummy tracks" in order to control linked tracks then

1) in some cases you're just doubling up on "control tracks", right? I mean, if I want to have a VCA control my stems, and I want to be able to record enable them easily with one click and not much navigation, then I'd end up with not just yet another channel but also a different type of channel (audio). So I'll end up with one VCA and one audio track, just to control my stems. Two channels instead of one. I don't see how that's an improvement over just using one.

2) While I could think of VCAs in terms of "control channels" I can't do that for the "dummy audio tracks" because they're not. If I choose "hide audio channels" when in the mixer - with the intent of leaving only for example groups, outputs (my stems) and control channels (VCAs) visible my "dummy tracks" disappear - but I wanted them to be visible because I wanted to see certain tracks that functioned, conceptually, a certain way. In addition I would assume that any changes I make to the linked channels will have to be taken into double-account now since an individual channel is first linked then a member of a VCA (or potentially so at least). More to consider, no?

So in this case there are practical implications that "override" the conceptual view of how channels function. They might be thought of as "dummy control channels", but they're still audio tracks, and Nuendo will treat them as such.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

benoit wrote:dear all,

i agree with fredo here.
back in the days, i've been working for many years on analog desks (still having 2 old ladies here), most of them beeing loaded with vca-faders. of course, no way to arm the A820- or 3324-tracks directly from the console then, which seemed nothing but logical.
the straight way for me - even if i understand very well that the paradigm may have changed, and that a controller do offer functions an analog desk didn't have.

btw - loving the new features in NU7!

cheers,
benoit
But again I have to ask: How does a "rec" or "input monitoring" button on a VCA impact you in a negative way? If you're sitting in front of Pro Tools and are using VCAs, I would assume you simply choose not to press the button if you don't want to rec-enable the members, right? It'd be exactly the same thing here...
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by MattiasNYC »

Getalife2 wrote:Anyway, hopefully you see my point. As it now appears, a very long point.
I agree with your point 100%.... to the extent that I understand it :-)
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Getalife2 »

One other point.

I would not recommend what we are discussing for inclusion in Cubase. The additional options can be intimidating unless you have some flying time as an engineer under your belt. But Nuendo is the pinnacle of DAWs in my opinion, and is designed for professionals who do real work for real money. It should not be limited by consideration of "too much". This is NO diss to Cubase users. A different cost and demographic.

Hey, a System 5 straight out of the box is a serious handful as you're getting familiar with it. Anyone who has flown one knows that. It's deep and you can screw up if you don't know what you're doing. BUT, the plethora of features is what makes it great. If there is any DAW that should go for broke without concern about "dumbing it down for the new guy" it has to be Nuendo.
Last edited by Getalife2 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [ISSUE] VCA ___ (controls other than level)

Post by Fredo »

Getalife2,

You made excellent points.
And I completely support the idea of the Master Channel concept.
Though, I still remain stubborn on the integration of any other control than Mute/Solo and volume control in the current VCA implementation. There is no point in making a "Master Channel Extra light". :)
I do however support the idea that rec-arm will included when the rest of the "Master Channel" functionality is added.
Then it's clear that there is a pile of extra functionality available.
But no half work for the moment.

Have a nice weekend.
Fredo

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