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Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:07 pm
by Keyplayer
I still have this fader pegging problem. I canNOT figure this one out, but it's infuriating. :x

I have dumped my old templates and rebuilt new ones from scratch and it still happens. I started my last project in an EMPTY WINDOW and it still happens. I work on the project, close it, open the next day and tracks 17 - 32 have all pegged up to +6.2db! :shock: I have never in my life ever set a fader to max for any reason. So, how this development initially occurred is a big mystery. But it's been bugging me since Nov. 2017. I don't know where else to look. Could this be some kind of a Eucon issue? It's totally sporadic. Sometimes (rarely, but enough to mention it) it opens just fine. Sometimes it opens with 17 - 32 pegged. Sometimes it opens with 17 - 32 pegged and all of my VCAs are pegged! Sometimes 9 out of 16 MIDI tracks are pegged. Sometimes it opens correctly but every time I hit the RTZ button 17 - 32 pegged and all of my VCAs will spike. Other times only a few or none of them will spike. I don't have any consistent pattern that I can track, other than it started in November. I just turned it on like any other day and I'm dealing with this madness!

The other major irritant, since I've switched over to 100% ITB is that only 5 of my 6 Monitor Sources save properly. All 6 are active when I close the project. But Stereo Out 1 is always off when I re-open the project. What is that about? Why won't all 6 be active when I reopen the file? What's special about Stereo Out 1?

Can anyone here help me sort this out? Thanks!

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:06 pm
by MattiasNYC
I would maybe try projects without VCAs to see if that changes things.

A note on controllers: I have noticed that sometimes they "glitch" in terms of when they think a fader has been touched. I'm not sure if it's a grounding issue or a firmware/software issue or the device just being broken. But at any rate, I've had problems with them where they just won't function properly. So perhaps it may be a good idea to also disconnect any controllers and troubleshoot without them, just to see if there's a change.

Also; these new projects/templates, do they have automation points/nodes on tracks by default? If not I would recommend adding nodes to the very beginning of the timeline in your projects/templates. It should have to be done that way but it seems to help with some issues.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:43 am
by Keyplayer
Well, I am happy to report that it mad absolutely no difference when I disconnected my Artist Series Controllers. I really didn't want that to be the problem!! But I THINK I may have tracked down the problem. I won't know for sure until I've opened and closed several projects several times. But here's what I found out.

Because of the overall quirkiness of the issue, I began to suspect that maybe N7.1.3 might have been generally corrupted. So, I decided to install the 7.1.4 update. It didn't go through! :o Instead, I got this error message.
N7.1.40 INSTALL PROBLEM.jpg
(83.88 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Now, I'm thinking that this has definitely got to at least be a participant of this issue now.

I re-installed the update manager and got this message.
N7.1.30 ALREADY INSTALLED.jpg
(66.12 KiB) Not downloaded yet
So, clearly, some kind of corruption has taken place.

Next, I did an un-install and a clean re-install on N7. When the PC prompted me to re-start the computer or do it manually, I selected to do it manually because I had a couple of folders open at the time. But Windows 10, who was waiting to do an update, seized the PC and restarted it anyway! :x This cost me a half hour waiting for it to release the PC back to me! I had to start all over with the re-install process and, finally, I was able to update to N7.1.40.

When I launched Nuendo, then the project, then the controllers everything seems fine EXCEPT Stereo Out 1 was in the off position again. :x But so far, no pegging. As I said, I'll have to do this with several projects to confirm that this issue is fixed. But I am cautiously optimistic. :?

Any idea why Stereo Out 1 won't stay activated like the other surround and stereo outs? :?: :?: :?: :?:

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:46 pm
by Keyplayer
Just reopened last nights project. No pegging! :D Stereo Out 1 was off. But I still haven't figured out the cause of that yet. So, THIS IS GOOD! I don't understand what the deal is. But, if my ONLY problem is having to activate Stereo Out 1 each day to work, I'll take it! ;) :lol:

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:49 pm
by MattiasNYC
......weird.....

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:38 pm
by Keyplayer
MattiasNYC wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:49 pm
......weird.....
Any clue on why Stereo Out 1 will not save the "On" setting?

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:19 am
by MattiasNYC
What do you mean by "on" / "off"? Not sure I understand.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:57 pm
by Keyplayer
Here's the CR settings when I SAVE & close a project.
N7 CR Project as saved 02.jpg
(48.14 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Here's the CR settings when I re-open the project.
N7 CR Project Re-Opened 02.jpg
(46.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:00 pm
by Keyplayer
It doesn't matter how many or few monitor sources I have activated.

Here's the CR settings when I SAVE & close a project with only 3 sources.
N7 CR Project as saved 01.jpg
(43.01 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Here's the CR settings when I re-open the same project with only 3 sources.
N7 CR Project Re-Opened 01.jpg
(44.3 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I'd have placed all of these shots in the last post. But, apparently, you can't have more than 3 screenshots in a single post.

Anyway, that's what I mean by "On" & "Off." There is ALWAYS one CR source that will not re-open as I saved it! Do you know what cause that?

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:03 pm
by Fredo
I don't understand what you are doing.
You are *summing* (adding up) all of your Monitor Sources.

In normal conditions, you have one (1) monitor source selected.
That's your (default) main buss out. That's where your main mix resides. That's what you are exporting as "final mix".
The other "Sources" are meant to audition stems, MX, DX, FX, etc ....
The whole point of being to summ these sources is to listen to the DIAlog *and* -for example - foley, omitting the other stems.

I really don't see what you are trying to achieve, but I can tell you that it is a remedy for disaster.

Fredo

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:28 pm
by MattiasNYC
Yes, I agree with Fredo. Regardless of the issue you're now seeing (thanks for the screenshots, it's weird, I agree) you should probably rethink that workflow, because it looks very odd.

PS: Fredo, "recipe for disaster" ;)
"Remedy" would be the opposite

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:46 pm
by Keyplayer
Fredo wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:03 pm
I don't understand what you are doing.
You are *summing* (adding up) all of your Monitor Sources.

In normal conditions, you have one (1) monitor source selected.
That's your (default) main buss out. That's where your main mix resides. That's what you are exporting as "final mix".
The other "Sources" are meant to audition stems, MX, DX, FX, etc ....
The whole point of being to summ these sources is to listen to the DIAlog *and* -for example - foley, omitting the other stems.

I really don't see what you are trying to achieve, but I can tell you that it is a remedy for disaster.

Fredo
You mean "recipe for disaster." Remedy would avoid disaster. As for what I'm doing:

I'm working in stems, just as you described. I'm NOT DOING POST. I'm a Composer. I built a CR matrix that followed what I was used to working from my desk. On my desk I had 3 Surround Blocks (L,R,C,Lfe,LS & RS + Stereo) & 3 Stereo Blocks that let me work with 1) Rhythm Section 2) Orchestra & 3 Vocals. I could solo any of those 3 blocks to check whatever I was looking for in mixing from the Nuendo feed. When I printed the final mix back into Nuendo it went to single SR In or Stereo In.

I'm doing the same thing with the 3 Surround Outs in my Nuendo CR now. Only now when I'm ready to print, I have to re-route SR 2 & 3 to SR 1 for printing. The reason I use this procedure is for better FX control. I use LOTS of different reverbs & delays with all sorts of panning schemes (some static others automated). If I just soloed a track that shared an FX with another instrument I didn't want to hear, I'd have to waste time tracking down that track (or tracks) to mute it (them). With each section going to it's own dedicated SR group, that cuts those kind of interruptions down to almost zero.

When working on the desk in stereo all of the groups came up as stereo stems for instant isolation options. This 3 ST/SR setup was as close as I could get to matching my desk settings. I'm still getting used to working totally ITB. So, things could change. Right now, it works as the one setting that covers every template I use. I don't always have all the sources on at once. But I did notice that when I did, there was always one that wouldn't come back up as saved. Do you know why it won't save all of them? It seems very odd to me that there's always one source that re-opens in the "Off" position.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:01 am
by Fredo
Thanks for correcting me on the recipe-thing.
That's the only way to get better at writing in a foreign language.
:)

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:11 am
by Fredo
Doesn't matter if you are doing music or post, I can only tell you that you are using CR in an extreme unconventional way.


One of the listening busses is always -and per definition- your MAIN output.
I.e. the complete mix. I.e. All of the stems summed together.
By summing them all together, you are summing the main mix and the stems, while you should only be summing the stems together to obtain the main mix.
I bet that this is the reason why there is always one buss that is switched off after reopening.
'Cause -let me repeat that- within the CR structure and layout, you are summing your stems ON TOP of the main mix.
So within the design of CR, you are doing something that is totaly wrong.

Fredo

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:46 pm
by Keyplayer
Fredo wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:11 am
Doesn't matter if you are doing music or post, I can only tell you that you are using CR in an extreme unconventional way.


One of the listening busses is always -and per definition- your MAIN output.
I.e. the complete mix. I.e. All of the stems summed together.
By summing them all together, you are summing the main mix and the stems, while you should only be summing the stems together to obtain the main mix.
I bet that this is the reason why there is always one buss that is switched off after reopening.
'Cause -let me repeat that- within the CR structure and layout, you are summing your stems ON TOP of the main mix.
So within the design of CR, you are doing something that is totaly wrong.

Fredo
Thanks for the tip. Like I said, I'm still getting used to working totally ITB. I'll turn the other 2 monitor sources off and see if that makes a difference.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:03 pm
by MattiasNYC
Fredo wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:11 am
within the CR structure and layout, you are summing your stems ON TOP of the main mix.
So within the design of CR, you are doing something that is totaly wrong.

Fredo
He isn't actually summing to his main mix until the very last stage however, so he isn't "doubling" as part of his designed workflow.

I do agree however that there's a chance of confusion and possibly doubling if attention isn't paid and that it is unconventional.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:12 pm
by MattiasNYC
Keyplayer wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:46 pm
Thanks for the tip. Like I said, I'm still getting used to working totally ITB. I'll turn the other 2 monitor sources off and see if that makes a difference.
I'm abit curious about your routing still and also a bit worried you might end up with some trouble. Once you choose to re-route the output of the second two to the first one - if you do this in the mixer like one would normally do - then outputs 2/3 go into 1, and if you by accident monitor in CR with the sources "latched" and select 1, 2 and 3, then you'll surely get 2/3 twice: Once because they're tapped in CR directly, and one more time because they also go into channel 1.

So I think this is a bit dangerous because there's always the possibility that you re-route for export and for some reason forget to reset it, and then hear twice as much content from 2 and 3.

I would recommend that if you have enough monitor source slots avaiable (you have two more I think) then don't do it that way. You could have three group channels with those three types of sounds and have all of them go to the main output, and then choose the three groups and the main output as your sources. That way you never have to re-route for export but still have all options available when monitoring.

I think that is ultimately 'safer'.

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:54 pm
by Keyplayer
Well I've got good news and bad news.

Good news: I've figured out the answer to the "On/Off" question. Nuendo only re-opens with what ever is the main output (as defined as the RED output) in the "On" position. I turned all of my monitor sources off, except for slot 6 which was Stereo Out 1, and closed the file. When I reopened it, only Surround 1 was On, which is the red output. So, mystery solved there.

Bad news: Tracks 17 - 32 pegged again! It only happened once and I can't say when, because I wasn't paying attention at the time. But I think they were already pegged on re-opening the 1st time. They were not pegged when I re-opened the file to check the monitor source issue.

Also, I printed a VSTi Bass Track. The track recorded properly and shows the waveform clearly. But there is nothing coming out on playback (no led indicator at all)! At first I thought it might have been one of those "dead tracks." So I made a new audio track and moved the file, which would normally address the issue. But not this time. How does THAT happen? You can see the source but there's no output of any kind. :shock:

Re: STILL have this fader pegging problem!

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:33 am
by Keyplayer
So it was, in fact, another "Dead Track!" Apparently you can actually generate "stillborn tracks!" I had to make 2 more tracks and test them before I placed the bass file on it in the project window. It played just fine from that point on. I wish I could figure out the source of this weird corruption. Fortunately, there hasn't been any more pegging. But that one last time has made me not trust that the problem is solved now, only repressed.

Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:10 pm
by Keyplayer
This fader spiking problem is becoming quite serious! viewtopic.php?f=240&t=133079

Imagine being several hours into a mix and then having a block of 15 tracks keep spiking full blast for no apparent reason! :shock: I have to keep making screen shots to remember where these settings belong, because reversion would make me lose a ton of work going back to the last saved version! Meanwhile if I keep hitting save every 30 seconds then I can't change my mind about something! This is a nightmare! What the hell is causing this?

The last 2 times it happened was when I armed a track for record and hit play. Track 19 through 34 immediately spiked. Moreover, it is always the exact same tracks. 19 - 34 is usually 17 - 32. But I had duplicated a couple of MIDI tracks which bumped up the count. I'm going to try to replace that entire section with completely new tracks to see if that stops it. But so far, NOTHING HAS WORKED, including working with an empty project!

If anyone has any ideas of how to stop this, please respond!!! :cry:

Re: Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:02 pm
by fenderchris
I know that MattiasNYC has suggested this before, but it really does sound like a hardware controller or automation issue.

What do you use the DA7 for?

I sometimes get little issues like this with the Tangos and a restart usually solves it.

If it is always the same group of faders spiking it could be some hardware failure causing the problem.

Hope you find a remedy for this disaster soon.

Re: Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:28 pm
by Keyplayer
fenderchris wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:02 pm
I know that MattiasNYC has suggested this before, but it really does sound like a hardware controller or automation issue.

What do you use the DA7 for?

I sometimes get little issues like this with the Tangos and a restart usually solves it.

If it is always the same group of faders spiking it could be some hardware failure causing the problem.

Hope you find a remedy for this disaster soon.
The DA7 is my audio interface. I DISCONNECTED the EUCON controllers and it still spiked. They spiked on a project that started out empty (those were different tracks)! Needless to say, THAT one totally freaked me out! I CANNOT find the source.

I swapped out the offending tracks. When I re-open the file later today, we'll see if that had any effect.

Re: Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm
by Keyplayer
Well, so far so good. The new tracks SEEM to be stable. No spikes YET. I recorded one track since re-opening and it didn't make those new tracks jump at all. But i'd gone two full session with the old tracks without a spike. That is until last night and this morning. I'm making a screen shot just to be safe.

Re: Spiking Fader Problem: STILL!

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:15 pm
by Keyplayer
Day 2 of no spikes. But the session was all editing and pre-mixing. Still................. CAUTIOUSLY optimistic.