Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by bob99 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:37 am

If you're not using automatic updates in Win 10, there are different update/patch versions for earlier versions of Win 10:

(from https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/ ... ncy_patch/) :

Microsoft is rolling out updates automatically (you will automatically receive the update soon via Windows Update)

but you can manually download the update now if you want to:

1709: https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =KB4056892
1703: https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =kb4056891
1607: https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =KB4056890
1511: https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =KB4056888
1507: https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.co ... =KB4056893

Update any anti-virus software you are using before installing the security patches from Microsoft

In Win10, to see which version you are running, type winver in a command prompt

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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:54 pm

The OS patch will only protect against Meltdown. You will need a BIOS update to protect against Spectre.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by alexis » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:03 am

I read a report that the MS patch is preventing boot up on AMD machines, and so MS has withdrawn the W10 patch for machines running AMD.

This was over at the gearslutz thread (in the "Music Computer" section), I can't swear to it's veracity, but figured it was worth mentioning ...
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:20 am

MS has issued an official statement on it. It affects older AMD CPUs as far as I know, not the latest generation. MS shouldn't patch for AMD CPUs to begin with until it's known they've been "hacked" as well.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by peakae » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:31 am

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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by etchell » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Great link, just not the content :shock:

Having a Xeon E3-1231v3 system the outlook with the patch in regards of performance loss is concerning!

I read already in another forum about significant performance loss on Win7 system witn such a CPU when using VM...

May Intel spend me some dollars for a decent AMD system?! :evil:
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by etchell » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Also wondering if Steinberg wants to comment on the mess Intel made?!
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:29 pm

Well, so far I haven't really seen any reports of decreased performance by DAW users, with the exception of someone essentially getting a broken system after an update. But that's a bit of a different issue I think.

Anyway, I doubt they feel it necessary to spend the time to test it right now, and I'd be inclined to agree with that. It'd be more valuable if a company such as Scan audio ran benchmarks again since they've run through DAWbench on a bunch of different CPUs and could then provide a more specific picture of any degradation.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by peakae » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:09 am

It’s to early to predict, all I can say is I have not run into performance problems after the patch, and the cpu utilization looks the same. But none of the projects I work on right now are that big that it would matter.
Time will tell, I’m holding off buying a new computer right now till there are more facts/benchmarks on the table.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by etchell » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:02 am

Too optimistic standpoint, I'm afraid.

Reading the latest details in the German Heise.de website, performance degradation is already mentioned to be @20% !
Where forum users report even with Xeon v6 CPU -40%!
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 pm

The performance degradation is all about the specific task you are using your computer for. Many Xeon CPUs sits in servers that have to read large databases and such, those will be affected quite a bit. Normal desktop applications such as gaming, DAW, office and such will not suffer any noticeable difference, at least with a newer CPU generation from Skylake and forward.

https://betanews.com/2018/01/11/intel-m ... enchmarks/
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:24 pm

KHS wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:04 pm
The performance degradation is all about the specific task you are using your computer for. Many Xeon CPUs sits in servers that have to read large databases and such, those will be affected quite a bit. Normal desktop applications such as gaming, DAW, office and such will not suffer any noticeable difference, at least with a newer CPU generation from Skylake and forward.

https://betanews.com/2018/01/11/intel-m ... enchmarks/
The DAW workload with high track counts is similar to the database workload, which is one with a high number of IO syscalls. The mitigating factor is that, in 2018, a SSD "crippled" by the Intel chip workarounds can still easily read data at a rate required by the DAW for even the largest track counts. I think at this point we can safely say that the workarounds' performance degradation, in audio environments where its seen, is more of an annoyance than anything else. No one wants to see SSD performance cut by 30%, even if it's still more than enough for any DAW workload.

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm

eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:24 pm


The DAW workload with high track counts is similar to the database workload, which is one with a high number of IO syscalls. The mitigating factor is that, in 2018, a SSD "crippled" by the Intel chip workarounds can still easily read data at a rate required by the DAW for even the largest track counts. I think at this point we can safely say that the workarounds' performance degradation, in audio environments where its seen, is more of an annoyance than anything else. No one wants to see SSD performance cut by 30%, even if it's still more than enough for any DAW workload.

-E
I have to disagree with you on that. DAW workload is no near the workload of accessing a database. This is also why most users in this forum says they cannot see any noticeable performance degradation.
For the SSD, yes you are partially correct, but not with a typically DAW workload. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/micros ... 36236.html
As they also say, the largest performance degradation is with random write performance and that's not a typically DAW workload, as when you record it's sequential write, not random write.
When you scroll down a little more, you will see some real world bench with gaming, office and media creation all showing no difference at all.

I agree it's annoying to know that your hardware performe worse with the update, but for normal usage the difference is too small to notice.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:02 pm

eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:24 pm
The DAW workload with high track counts is similar to the database workload
As someone who works in both fields, I can tell you categorically this is not the case. If you have any evidence to support your claim, I'd love to see it.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:34 pm

MrSoundman wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:02 pm
eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:24 pm
The DAW workload with high track counts is similar to the database workload
As someone who works in both fields, I can tell you categorically this is not the case. If you have any evidence to support your claim, I'd love to see it.
Which one, the database server or the DAW with high track counts, is not performing significant disk IO?

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm

KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm
I have to disagree with you on that. DAW workload is no near the workload of accessing a database. This is also why most users in this forum says they cannot see any noticeable performance degradation.
They're the same workload in that they are both IO bound vs CPU bound.

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:21 pm

eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm
KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm
I have to disagree with you on that. DAW workload is no near the workload of accessing a database. This is also why most users in this forum says they cannot see any noticeable performance degradation.
They're the same workload in that they are both IO bound vs CPU bound.

-E
So why is it that we don't see any noticeable performance impact when working in a DAW?

It's not the same workload. Please post a link to prove your claim?
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:49 pm

KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:21 pm
eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm
KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm
I have to disagree with you on that. DAW workload is no near the workload of accessing a database. This is also why most users in this forum says they cannot see any noticeable performance degradation.
They're the same workload in that they are both IO bound vs CPU bound.

-E
So why is it that we don't see any noticeable performance impact when working in a DAW?

It's not the same workload. Please post a link to prove your claim?
I'm the source of the claim. The final capacity of both systems is limited by IO. We don't see any performance impact in our DAWs because we're not at the IO limit. Database servers only exhibit pre/post patch performance differences when driven at their peak IO. A database server that barely performs any IO will show no difference.

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:55 pm

eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:49 pm
KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:21 pm
eli_lilly wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm


They're the same workload in that they are both IO bound vs CPU bound.

-E
So why is it that we don't see any noticeable performance impact when working in a DAW?

It's not the same workload. Please post a link to prove your claim?
I'm the source of the claim. The final capacity of both systems is limited by IO. We don't see any performance impact in our DAWs because we're not at the IO limit. Database servers only exhibit pre/post patch performance differences when driven at their peak IO. A database server that barely performs any IO will show no difference.

-E
Well, there you go. You said it yourself. DAW usage are not affected because no one gets no where near the IO limits.
Database usage will have a much higher IO usage from potentially thousands of users surfing a large forum at the same time needing to access the database and in addition create network IO workload as well (Just an example)
A DAW will need to access mostly well below 150 files at the same time if it's a very large project and have no network IO.
Thus working in a DAW will see NO NOTICEABLE PERFORMANCE IMPACT, which is also confirmed by various users here in these forums.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:11 pm

KHS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:55 pm
Well, there you go. You said it yourself. DAW usage are not affected because no one gets no where near the IO limits.
Database usage will have a much higher IO usage from potentially thousands of users surfing a large forum at the same time needing to access the database and in addition create network IO workload as well (Just an example)
A DAW will need to access mostly well below 150 files at the same time if it's a very large project and have no network IO.
Thus working in a DAW will see NO NOTICEABLE PERFORMANCE IMPACT, which is also confirmed by various users here in these forums.
In the first message of mine that you replied to, I clearly said that DAW users would not notice an impact. Database impact, as well, is entirely dependent on utilization. A barely-utilized database system will see no impact. I guess my use of "workload" was confusing. I was referring to the final limiting utilization factor for both is disk IO, not CPU. That's a fairly unusual workload.

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by KHS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:38 pm

You just need to keep in mind that severs are not only about disk IO but also network IO and will thus create a lot more IO than DAW usage. Not saying they will hit the limit but you cannot compare servers to DAW usage because it is far from the same workload.
With that said, all the big players like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and so on all claims they didn't see any noticeable performance impact as well.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:22 pm

... and now, some actual science from the ever-vigilent Peter Kaine of Scan Pro Audio.
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:47 pm

MrSoundman wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:22 pm
... and now, some actual science from the ever-vigilent Peter Kaine of Scan Pro Audio.
Of which the TL;DR is CPU-driven processes are nearly unaffected, but DAW users who are near their disk IO limits may see issues. Sounds vaguely familiar...

-E
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by MrSoundman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:57 pm

Anything that's near any limit will of course have a problem, but those benchmarks are based on hundreds of Kontakt voices .... how many real-life projects would have, say, 1000 simultaneous Kontakt voices? They indicate approx. 3%-7% of a hit in those extreme cases and for the none at all for many use cases. In the database world, people are seeing anything up to 40% of a hit, which is disasterous, simply no comparision, and the reason is that the disk I/O is of a completely different character (random access read/write with simultaneous high network loads) compared to a DAW (sequential read access with comparatively little or no network activity).
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Re: Recently discovered Intel CPUs processor design flaw

Post by eli_lilly » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:33 am

MrSoundman wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:57 pm
Anything that's near any limit will of course have a problem, but those benchmarks are based on hundreds of Kontakt voices .... how many real-life projects would have, say, 1000 simultaneous Kontakt voices? They indicate approx. 3%-7% of a hit in those extreme cases and for the none at all for many use cases. In the database world, people are seeing anything up to 40% of a hit, which is disasterous, simply no comparision, and the reason is that the disk I/O is of a completely different character (random access read/write with simultaneous high network loads) compared to a DAW (sequential read access with comparatively little or no network activity).
The problem isn't Kontakt voices, it's disk IO. In the article you cited, the problem with Kontakt instruments is with voices that use "disk streaming". In this whole discussions, I've been asked repeatedly why "we" aren't seeing any DAW problems. Well, it's because the "we" who are here in the forums have track counts that top out at 150 (number coming from previous poster disagreeing with me). When you're doing film scoring, however, you're using thousands of tracks (as reported by multiple posters in the main Cubase forum). If you've got thousands of tracks, you've got serious disk IO going on.

Random versus sequential IO depends entirely on where the block is located on disk. Do a punch? No longer sequential. I mean, do you really record all the tracks at once? No aspect of the recording process is nonlinear?

Network throughput is way faster than disk throughput. Disk IO has forever been the slowest aspect of computing until the SSD era, which is recent.

In the database world, no one has seen a real-world "40%" hit. The 30% number that has been bandied about was a very early test of "select 1" under PostgreSQL on Linux, which creates a worse-than-worst-case load.

DAW and dedicated database servers are ultimately disk IO limited, and in either scenario, if you're at the upper range of utilization you'll feel the impact of the Intel mitigation. AKA the long-winded version of my original post.

-E
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