6.02 patch - crackles!

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by Santuzzo » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:03 pm

Santuzzo wrote:Thanks for all the new input!

Yesterday I tried to re-create the crackles I had but no luck. When I played back what I had previously recorded there were no crackles, but I did not try to record. I will do that this weekend, and post my results.

One different problem I had noticed (also not last night but about a week ago or so after installing the 6.0.2 patch):
When playing back my project it played back slowed down as if I had applied a slow down software of some kind. It sounded really strange.
When I hit stop and play again, it was back to normal, but I had this happening a few times, and only after I installed the 6.0.2 patch. Before this patch I had never had this problem.

Does anybody have an idea what the cause of this could be?

Thanks,
Lars
Anything about this issue mentioned by me some days ago?
Did anybody else experience something similar on 6.0.2?

Thanks,
Lars

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by cenk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:55 pm

Thanks for the detailed information.

I don't have any crackles with or without MBC. But the important thing is for me that I was able to play midi keyboard and edit midi notes with MBC enabled on Cubase 5.5.3 without any latency issues, but now on Cubase 6.0.2 I am not satisifed with the peformance of latency if I enable MBC. Same PC, same configuration, same MR816, same OS, everything is same...




JHP wrote:Let me point out again that in general the Cubase 6.02 patch does not crackle, as the topic suggests.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some more important technical facts that relate to some of the posts in this thread. Especially because the MBC now introduces more latency the following is important to realize.

We should distinguish between 1. latency introduced by plugins and 2. ASIO crackles. Let me point out some more important technical facts regarding 1. latency introduced by plugins.

We must differentiate between two types of plugins.
A. Those which introduce a latency
B. Those which don't introduce a latency

The reason why some VST's introduce a delay is because for instance they make use of look ahead technology in order to provide special functionality to the user or because it might take some time to process the signal being fed in to it because they use special calculation specifications.

In Cubase if you open the Plugin Information windows you can check your plugins and in the "Latency" column look up how much delay (in samples) is introduced if the plugin is inserted. Click on the latency tag to sort all of your plugins by latency. :!: You should realy do this right now if you are not aware of your plugin latencies.:!:

Let's say we have the MBC with a delay of 3926 (new 6.02) sams inserted in the project. What happens now is that the Automatic Plugin Compensation feature comes to use. This means that all the other tracks will also be delayed by the same amount of samples so the audio remains in sync when you play back. If we are working with a samplerate of 48 kHz one sample would be 1/48000 sec. So in this case the MBC will introduce 3926/48000 sec = 81.7916667 ms. So all the other tracks will also be played back 82ms later to remain in sync with the track that the MBC has been inserted on.
Furthermore we will for instance experience a 82ms increase of latency during input when we put the MBC on the VSTi out, FX Tracks, Group Tracks that the signal is routed to or on the Master Channel and then hit on our MIDI keys to play the VSTi. To make this more clear you can test this and add several latency introducing plugins to your recording channels or and the master channel. This is not a MBC issue but a natural behavior of all latency introducing plugins.

That tells us one thing for sure, as we require a low latency environment for recording VSTi's or non direct monitoring audio, we should not insert plugins that introduce latency on the tracks on which we would like to record or tracks that are linked to the tracks on which we would like to record (Audio tracks, VSTi outs, FX Tracks, Group Tracks that the signal is routed to or on the Master Channel). To be absolutely on the safe side one should consider not to use delay introducing plugins in the creational recording phase.

If you still do this you might want to consider making use of the "Constraint Delay Compensation" button on the upper left side of the project window when you start recording.

I hope that I could clarify some technicalities.
---
Regarding ASIO crackles there is two ways to prevent them. One, you can raise the buffersize, two you can reduce the strain on the system by using less processes.

Andreasm has stated that he is working on calming down the CPU consumption for the MBC regarding the problem that for small block sizes (<=128) it could happen that crackles might be introduced.

Digital audio engineering facts regarding latency introducing plugins and ASIO overloads that I am pointing out will remain.

Gr,
JHP
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by JHP » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:03 pm

Santuzzo wrote:
Santuzzo wrote:Thanks for all the new input!

Yesterday I tried to re-create the crackles I had but no luck. When I played back what I had previously recorded there were no crackles, but I did not try to record. I will do that this weekend, and post my results.

One different problem I had noticed (also not last night but about a week ago or so after installing the 6.0.2 patch):
When playing back my project it played back slowed down as if I had applied a slow down software of some kind. It sounded really strange.
When I hit stop and play again, it was back to normal, but I had this happening a few times, and only after I installed the 6.0.2 patch. Before this patch I had never had this problem.

Does anybody have an idea what the cause of this could be?

Thanks,
Lars
Anything about this issue mentioned by me some days ago?
Did anybody else experience something similar on 6.0.2?

Thanks,
Lars
No, I did not experience such behavior. I very much doubt that it's related to the MBC or the 6.02 patch.

The behavior you describe would probably be related to samplerate changes in either the "Project--> Project Settings" or more likely your ASIO driver's setup in its control panel. Some ASIO devices sometimes do not manage to properly link the project samplerate and the driver samplerate. I would advise you to update your ASIO driver if updates are available. Now if it occurs again you know where to check, go to your project setup and to your ASIO drivers control pannel and check if they are linked correctly.

If you would like to reproduce, go to "Project--> Project Setup" and change your samplerate and click on ok. Then in the upcoming dialog choose not to convert the files to the new samplerate. As you are writing about a slow down your samplerate probably switched from a higher samplerate setting to a lower samplerate setting without audio file conversion.

Gr,
JHP
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Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by lbratlan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:43 pm

After updating to 6.0.2 I also experienced a lot of crackles...
I dont use the MBC though, but I use EW PLAY engine on my projects which also seems to affect the crackles...

Quite frustrating, especially when you are about to finish a project you have been working on for 2 years, and this s@#t suddenly happens...

:|

Any words about Cubase 6.0.3?

Thanks

-L

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by JHP » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

cenk wrote:Thanks for the detailed information.

I don't have any crackles with or without MBC. But the important thing is for me that I was able to play midi keyboard and edit midi notes with MBC enabled on Cubase 5.5.3 without any latency issues, but now on Cubase 6.0.2 I am not satisifed with the peformance of latency if I enable MBC. Same PC, same configuration, same MR816, same OS, everything is same...
To my knowledge the MBC also introduced latency in 5.5.3 (1712 sams) so you already had latency before. You only have some more latency now (3926 sams) in Cubase 6.02 because the MBC has been improved as a fix was introduced. This has been written in this thread. Anyway as I already stated it is not advisable to use latency introducing plugins on your tracks when you are recording not in 5.5.3 and also not in 6.0.2. If you choose to use the MBC, or any other plugin that introduces latency, during the recording stage you should use the Constraint Delay Compensation button before you start recording. This is advancement for the MBC not a set back and not a reason to be dissatisfied. You just have to be aware of how to handle plugins that introduce latency in general. My previous post outlines this a little bit more.

Perhaps you would like to share with us where exactly you insert your MBC's to achieve which result in conjunction with which VSTi's.
cenk wrote: I don't have any crackles with or without MBC.
Yes, I also don't have any crackles here.

Anyway, as andreasm stated there seems to be some room for optimization regarding the MBC working on buffersizes equal and below 128 sams. ;)

Gr,
JHP
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by RJH Music » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:20 pm

Yes, here too. I do not use MBC or any other inserts, only VSTI's. EW Play and Trillian currently in a project. I was having problems with crackles so I increased the buffer size and they went away. Latency went from 5 ms to about 12 which is not audible so I am ok there. Also having problems with tempo slowing down and then all of a sudden correcting itself. It drives my Drum Machine nuts. Appeared with 6.0.2.

I hate to say this and do not mean any ill will by saying it, but the lengthy technical reponse seen a couple of response back seems typical of Steinberg. You can explain away anything you like but if you hear what users are saying carefully, it indicates that something bad has been introduced with a new version. All these users have the same system and settings which gave them no problem before the update to 6.0.2 and now they have problems. All of a sudden we have to make adjustments to settings. WHY? prior to the install of a new version, everything worked with the settings we had, now it doesn't. Should not take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the problems came with the update no??
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by JHP » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:52 pm

lbratlan wrote:After updating to 6.0.2 I also experienced a lot of crackles...
I dont use the MBC though, but I use EW PLAY engine on my projects which also seems to affect the crackles...

Quite frustrating, especially when you are about to finish a project you have been working on for 2 years, and this s@#t suddenly happens...

:|

Any words about Cubase 6.0.3?

Thanks

-L
You don't use the MBC... check
but you use the EW Play engine... check
using the EW Play engine also seems to affect the crackles... check <-- special point
you are about to finish a project... check
on which you have been working for 2 years... check
you install the 6.02 update... check
and "this s@#t suddenly happens" :shock: ... check
It could be that the project is quite big and you are getting to the limitations of your system by overloading the ram with samples and that this is not a particular 6.02 issue.

You can deinstall cubase an reinstall it to get back to 6.00 or even get back to the versions between 6.00 and 6.02 by applying the respective updates to make sure.
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Cubase_6/

Gr,
JHP
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by RJH Music » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:18 pm

IN my case, I am not using too many resources. Like I said before, same setup, same resources with no problem. Nothing changed in my system. The only thing that changed was the update!!!

Here is an example - MAC Book PRO 2.54 ghtrz 6 GB ram, 500gb 7200 rpm HYbrid drive, blazing fast, MOTU 828 II Audio Interface and MOTU MTPAV USB MIDI interface. Cubase 6.0.2 Project loaded with 4 MIDI tracks and two VSTI tracks - 1 instance (track) of EW Play SO Platinum Con Sordino Violin, 1 instance (track) of Trillian playing one bass sound. I am hardly even tapping the system. Same project loaded a month ago under Cubase 6.0 NO PROBLEMS. Same project loaded under Cubase 6.0.2 making tempo on record and playback vary and go nuts evertime there is a crackle or pop. Had to change sample size to get rid of pops and crackle but tempo shft still there. And now all of a sudden the fans in my Mac Book Pro are going wild. EVERYTHING CHANGED AFTER I LOADED 6.0.2 going back to 6.0 this weekend. After all, the ability to change the fader button color is absoilutely useless compared to the problems presented.

"Denial Is A Disease"

RJ
MAC Book Pro 10.8, 16 gb ram, iMAC 21.5 16 GB ram | G-Tech Raid Mini | MOTU 828 II | MTPAV (2) | Cubase 4 - 7 + SX | EWQL PLAY; VOP, Goliath, SC, SOP, Gypsy, Pianos, SD 1&2 | Ilio; Omnishere, Trillian | YT, INDY Pro 3 | Kontakt 4 | Vienna Ensemble Pro | The Sax Brothers | Real Guitar | BFD 2 | Melodyne | Logic Pro 9 | LAS | MACHINE Complete | Hardware - Roland JV,1000, JV 1080 XP80, Fantom, XV 5080, 3080, R-70, DR-880 | Korg M1, M3R, O3R/W, Triton Rack, TR Rack | Mackie 32 X 8, HUI, d8b, Yamaha Motif X7

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by TechBytes » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:57 pm

JHP wrote:
To my knowledge the MBC also introduced latency in 5.5.3 (1712 sams) so you already had latency before. You only have some more latency now (3926 sams) in Cubase 6.02 because the MBC has been improved as a fix was introduced.
Wheres the face palm emoticon when you need it.. !

You are really not getting it are you ?

The MBC with the previously noted 1712 sample inherent delay did not cause any PDC/delay issues in the past and 100's of instances could be used at ultra low latency without introducing any artefacts , whatever has been "fixed" has actually broken the plugin to the point of being unusable in the previous manner that no one complained about, first point, and also introduced other anomalies.

First rule - If It Aint Broke, Don't Fix. !

Your long rambling so called technical response is nothing but apologetics and lip service , sort the problem , save the lip service .

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by Santuzzo » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:15 pm

JHP wrote: No, I did not experience such behavior. I very much doubt that it's related to the MBC or the 6.02 patch.

The behavior you describe would probably be related to samplerate changes in either the "Project--> Project Settings" or more likely your ASIO driver's setup in its control panel. Some ASIO devices sometimes do not manage to properly link the project samplerate and the driver samplerate. I would advise you to update your ASIO driver if updates are available. Now if it occurs again you know where to check, go to your project setup and to your ASIO drivers control pannel and check if they are linked correctly.

If you would like to reproduce, go to "Project--> Project Setup" and change your samplerate and click on ok. Then in the upcoming dialog choose not to convert the files to the new samplerate. As you are writing about a slow down your samplerate probably switched from a higher samplerate setting to a lower samplerate setting without audio file conversion.

Gr,
JHP
Thank you very much for this info!

I will look into this.

Lars

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by RJH Music » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:37 pm

To techbytes - AMEN brother or sister!! Long winded eplanation that pretty much said nothing. I guess if it takes thi slong to acknowledge a high level bug such as this, I will never get my GUI enhancements.

Also - not to digress too much but why in the Sam Hill does the stpuid License Control center automatically re-install with every update?? Should it automatically look to see if one is there already and here is a brainstorm - If it did and figures out that a newer version is installed, why does it overwrite with older version.

RJ

Sorry - had to get my two cents in, beacuse this will undoubtedly haoppen yet again qhen i de-install 6.02 and revert to 6.00 until Steinberg can have something constructive to add.
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by bioticste » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:27 pm

I also have the same problem whether running MBC or not I get crackles and pops when running Cubase 6.0.2 x64. I have rolled back to 6.0 and all is fine again. My system is an I7-2820QM Laptop with 16GB RAM, x64 Window 7 and a Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 (USB 2.0) audio interface. I can't beleive it's due to overloading the system as it only happens with the 6.0.2 patch installed I think that must be the cause. I hope Steinberg sort this out with a 6.0.3 patch soon as some of the new and fixed features are usful though far from necessary if they cause latency issues.
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by Sound_Temple_Studios » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:17 am

Just upgraded to C6.02 (from 5.52). Version 6.02 is a major performance upgrade from 5.53. Works great and VERY snappy. I can run lower buffer settings (even 32 samples with no plugs) during tracking and no Crackles!!!

Nice work Steinberg.
Robert George
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Asheville NC 28806
http://www.soundtemplestudios.com

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by jgaryt » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:48 am

*sigh* FWIW:

Opened older project (5.x) in 6.02. Worked fine before, was finished, mastered and released into the wild, now crackles unless I go through and disable all MBC's.

Love Cubase. Not ranting, switching DAW's or anything. Just saying. Long time user, know my system, and songs that used to play fine, now don't.
-jgaryt-
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by DanCas » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:04 pm

Same behaviour on my Win7 64 bits PC.
6.02 crackles with just a single Halion SE track.... no specific effect
Had to increase the buffer to 1024. Now it crackles much less...... but still !

Steinberg please...
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by TechBytes » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:45 pm

jgaryt wrote:Opened older project (5.x) in 6.02. Worked fine before, was finished, mastered and released into the wild, now crackles unless I go through and disable all MBC's
That reason alone is more than enough for anyone with half a sense at Steinberg to realise that what ever they have introduced with these so called fixes, has done nothing but actually break backwards compatibility , for absolutely no justifiable reason.

If they want to introduce a new Multiband Compressor with huge inherent delays and subsequent performance issues, more power to them, but why break a perfectly working plugin that many of us have been using for years without issue , and then enforce their so called fix onto that plugin ID.

Makes absolutely no sense.

FWIW: I have more than a few local reports of 6.02 causing crackles on sessions using NO Steinberg Plugins what so ever, and rolling back instantly fixed the problem , so don't let anyone from Steinberg say that its Systematic !

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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by JHP » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:54 pm

Let me point out again that in general the Cubase 6.02 patch does not crackle, as the topic suggests.
TechBytes wrote:I'm confused.. !
TechBytes wrote: @ JHP,

Your 101 on dynamic ASIO buffer setting seems to miss one vital point , that many of us require the systems to run at ultra low latencies for the vast majority of time due to using virtual instruments , so raising buffers for mixing is irrelevant to the working environments being posed on this thread. Also many with good audio hardware can set and forget modern native systems at 064/128 samples and never touch the dial , the so called common practice of raising buffers depending on the production stage is not as valid as it was on past systems, it just sounds like a cop out.
:shock:
I was pointing out some incontestable facts about ASIO and ASIO environments and there is nothing to argue. :|

1. I do not see how there is quote "a valid point missing that many of us require the systems to run at ultra low latencies for the vast majority of time due to using virtual instruments". Of course close to zero latency is desirable for recording and that’s what I stated "when you record you would reduce the buffersize". Just to make it absolutely clear yes, of course close to zero latency is desirable when we record our VSTi's.
.... obviously. :)

2. Also I do not see why you would conclude that quote "raising buffers for mixing is irrelevant to the working environments being posed on this thread". If one doesn't use many plugins and does not use resource hungry processes one might be able to build up a project and finalize it with low buffersizes, but if one is using vsti's and CPU hungry plugins the buffersize is of course of relevance. Let's not start splitting hairs on this.
TechBytes wrote: Also many with good audio hardware can set and forget modern native systems at 064/128 samples and never touch the dial ,
If you have small projects and don’t use many plugins you might be able to stay on those 64 sams buffersize. For users that have bigger projects and use more and more plugins this will certainly not be the case.

We should consider that it is not so much advisable to for instance drop MBC's and Reverences into a project before we recorded our first MIDI note but more after we recorded the last note.
TechBytes wrote: If the majority here had no problem what so ever on 6.00 and 6.01, then it would be wise to focus on resolving the issues that you have introduced instead of shifting the blame on the end user's working environments / systems.
I have never shifted the blame to anyone. I was pointing out some facts. Just read what I wrote and don’t troll and twist my words. Acknowledge that my focus is constructive and you are the one exemplifying confrontational attitude. ;)

----
TechBytes wrote: Wheres the face palm emoticon when you need it.. !

You are really not getting it are you ?

The MBC with the previously noted 1712 sample inherent delay did not cause any PDC/delay issues in the past and 100's of instances could be used at ultra low latency without introducing any artefacts , whatever has been "fixed" has actually broken the plugin to the point of being unusable in the previous manner that no one complained about, first point, and also introduced other anomalies.

First rule - If It Aint Broke, Don't Fix. !

Your long rambling so called technical response is nothing but apologetics and lip service , sort the problem , save the lip service .
The MBC does not have "PDC/delay issues". It seems that you have misunderstood. It naturally introduces latency.
In 5.5.3 it might depend on the buffersize however and does under certain conditions produce undesirable artifacts.

So yes, the MBC also may introduce latency in 5.5.3 but that is not even the center point of what have written.
The main point of my second post was how to treat plugins that introduce latency like the MBC and how to find out which ones do. This is relevant to the second post of the thread starter.

The reason why the MBC has been changed is because it under certain conditions could introduce artifacts, latency is apperantly necessary to avoid these artifacts.

The Bug fix is listed in the version history:
28340 Potential sound artifacts when using the MultiBandCompressor with small ASIO buffer sizes
has been corrected.

The complaints and stated issues have already been acknowledged and a report has been issued. There is no need to troll around.

And as you where talking about rules let's go down that road as well. Your appearance here is quite inappropriate. Your posts here are factually wrong. You are misinforming the public. If you have points to make then go ahead but don't just come here to troll around. This is not they way we like to communicate around here in the forums. We would like to have constructive and reasonable posts from people that respect proper forum conduct. So if you are into polemics, trolling, flaming bashing and “facpalm emoticons” you are at the wrong place. Please have a look at the forum rules so you won't be puzzled if you should get banned.

Constructive explanatory, informative posts and criticism are welcome.

Gr,
JHP
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Re: 6.02 patch - crackles!

Post by JHP » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:02 pm

The thread starter “Early21” has received and acknowledged clarification to his initial posts.
Unfortunately this thread has now turned into a jumble.
To avoid misconceptions and further jumbling I have decided to lock this thread.

There are two main points that are thrown into one pot in this thread:
1. MBC issues
Report forwarded. Checked off

2. Projects without MBC that used to run well in 6.01 now crackle in 6.02
Not checked

Point one is checked off.
Point two needs more assessment:

We have a lot of users that are enthusiastic about the 6.02 patch.
However there have been some users that complain about “Projects without MBC that used to run well in 6.01 now crackle in 6.02”. I could not reproduce this problem.
I would like to propose to these users to PM me there problematic projects or repros so I can investigate on this and issue a report to the respective departments.

Note there has been an issue reported in which the MultiBand Compressor can produce cackles on low buffersizes. We should not mix this issue up with “Projects without MBC that used to run well in 6.01 now crackle in 6.02”. Feel free to start a new topic on "Projects without MBC that used to run well in 6.01 now crackle in 6.02”.

Gr,
JHP
Jan Peters, QA
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