Midi Jitter during playback !!!

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chase
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by chase »

Conman wrote:
chase wrote:[...]Convolution, per se, can't cause two MIDI playbacks to be different.
Convoluted = highly complex or intricate and occasionally devious.
You are right mathematically but we aren't talking maths we're talking synth (and reverb) terms for sound reproduction. Convolution in these terms serves to make the sound interesting ie: varied.
Yes, I do know what "convoluted" means in ordinary English.

So, you were using the word "convolution" to mean the condition of being twisted, coiled or intricate, etc, rather than the technical use of the word in maths or digital audio.

I'm surprised to learn that you associate that (complexity-type) meaning with "convolution" when speaking about reverb, instead of meaning the type of reverb that works by convolution (in the digital-audio/mathematical sense). IMHO, that usage is VERY likely to cause confusion amongst readers of this forum - I expect that if you use the word "convolution" when describing reverb, most of us will think you're talking about convolution reverb.

If I spoke about the frequency of the A above middle C, forum members wouldn't expect me to mean how often that note is played. If I said I'd just bought a compressor, they wouldn't envisage a pump that pressurises gas.

Similarly with other words, such as: note, key, scale, interval, staff, quaver, bar, rest, pause, bow, string, wind, roll, amplify, distortion, fidelity, gate, delay, insert, effects, instrumental, conductor, ... The context (this forum) sets up an expectation that such words have a meaning that's not the meaning found in ordinary English.

I may be wrong, but I expect the majority of people reading posts in this forum will expect the word "convolution" to be used in the technical sense when discussing aspects of digital audio. If I'm right, there, using it to mean twisted/coiled/intricate/etc in such circumstances is, IMHO, pretty well asking to be misunderstood.

Anyway, I'm glad you've now explained what you meant by "convolution", because I thought for a while that you weren't willing to say what you meant by it ...
krisp wrote:Convolution, as a mathematical concept, have nothing to do with the OP's problems. And if you think I'm wrong then please, enlighten me: what is convolution?
Conman wrote:No. You tell me smartass.

popmann
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by popmann »

Please note, these test are not done by bouncing in real time but recording the playback directly from a group.
E.g. record the audio in two independent takes from the same VSTi with a single layer sample and all effects and variables in volume and filters turned off. When you null them against eachother, they are slightly different every recorded instance. While different exports null out.
I will certainly check that out next time I'm down there in "geeky mode". I do get the difference. I never really considered a real time export and a "live bounce" as having different results...interesting.

What I was saying about the thing being hardware related was that your audio NOR midi hardware has anything to do with any INTERNAL software timing, except by providing the master audio crystal clock, to which the audio and midi engines sync. Nor does it matter that midi has been troublesome on windows. Because even though the app is running on windows, only EXTERNAL midi would utilize and of the USB or direct sound midi functions of the OS. So, I think we are in agreement that your issue would be host related...or VI related-and since you clarified you get the same results with other VIs by different developers, I would say it sounds like a cubase bug.

Interesting that the real time exports null, though. It's as if something is distracting the CPU during the live bounce, where the real time export has a chance to put the hit in the right place after detecting it was interrupted. Do you get these results with a project with only the midi track in question? Also...have you seen any difference between using an instrument track versus the instrument rack+midi track?

Side note, I've often wondered why, to solve both our issues, companies don't just make the midi timing sample accurate. Rather than 480/960...why not make it "snap" to the nearest sample pulse? Effectively making there be no difference in the timing of sequenced midi and "live played" midi. Just something I've wondered in all these years of having less than stellar internal VI timing. While I get there will never be a true "midi 2.0", why not go ahead and establish a bridge to that with the timing resolution locked to the sample clock...giving yet another reason to go to 96k!

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

chase wrote:
Conman wrote:
chase wrote:[...]Convolution, per se, can't cause two MIDI playbacks to be different.
Convoluted = highly complex or intricate and occasionally devious.
You are right mathematically but we aren't talking maths we're talking synth (and reverb) terms for sound reproduction. Convolution in these terms serves to make the sound interesting ie: varied.
Yes, I do know what "convoluted" means in ordinary English.

So, you were using the word "convolution" to mean the condition of being twisted, coiled or intricate, etc, rather than the technical use of the word in maths or digital audio.

I'm surprised to learn that you associate that (complexity-type) meaning with "convolution" when speaking about reverb, instead of meaning the type of reverb that works by convolution (in the digital-audio/mathematical sense). IMHO, that usage is VERY likely to cause confusion amongst readers of this forum - I expect that if you use the word "convolution" when describing reverb, most of us will think you're talking about convolution reverb.

If I spoke about the frequency of the A above middle C, forum members wouldn't expect me to mean how often that note is played. If I said I'd just bought a compressor, they wouldn't envisage a pump that pressurises gas.

Similarly with other words, such as: note, key, scale, interval, staff, quaver, bar, rest, pause, bow, string, wind, roll, amplify, distortion, fidelity, gate, delay, insert, effects, instrumental, conductor, ... The context (this forum) sets up an expectation that such words have a meaning that's not the meaning found in ordinary English.

I may be wrong, but I expect the majority of people reading posts in this forum will expect the word "convolution" to be used in the technical sense when discussing aspects of digital audio. If I'm right, there, using it to mean twisted/coiled/intricate/etc in such circumstances is, IMHO, pretty well asking to be misunderstood.

Anyway, I'm glad you've now explained what you meant by "convolution", because I thought for a while that you weren't willing to say what you meant by it ...
I do credit the forum members with at least moderate intelligence enough to tell I'm not talking about a math concept but a variable sound reproduction process. If they didn't have that intelligence they'd never be able to use Cubase to the full.

I may have found why there's no nulling here! On copying the same track I did, as expected, find comb filtering. Then I panned one hard left and one hard right. The drum sounds did a nice stereo dance with toms etc. panning across the monitors.
So? What you are summing is, although it doesn't say so explicitly, already a stereo sound field of drums and this movement is what is causing the "out of phasement" and non-nulling and why recording copies produces no nulling.
I suggest that to properly double any sounds that you perform a "Dissolve part" to get the required sounds, typically mostly snare and bass drum, you might find things are rather more civilised but I suspect you may still get some phasing. Mostly though I'd expect phasing especially if you double different samples from another drum patch. Not that that isn't mostly the typical idea of doubling ie: To get interesting phases and reinforcements and, at times, weakening a too strong signal. Phasde reversal is, after all, usually used on input from stereo mic pairs and overhead v. drumkit mics and not for checking midi signals. And even live drumkits can have undesirable phase relationships between overheads and the close-mics which can be remedied by careful phase reversal.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

chase
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by chase »

Conman wrote:I do credit the forum members with at least moderate intelligence enough to tell I'm not talking about a math concept but a variable sound reproduction process. If they didn't have that intelligence they'd never be able to use Cubase to the full.
Unfortunately (it seems) for me, when you were talking about convolution in the context of digital audio, I did think you meant convolution in the technical sense, ie as used in digital audio.

TBH, I've never before known the word "convolution" to be used to describe a "variable sound process" - and TBH I'm not actually sure what that might include: things like "round-robin" samples, perhaps? (used to stop repeated notes sounding too similar); phasing? flanging? free-running oscilators that don't re-start at a particular part of a wave form when a note is triggered? the liberal use of MIDI Continuous Controllers to breathe life into samples? any live (real) instrument? -- Do all real instruments exhibit "convolution" (in this sense) whenever they're played?

Anyway, now I know I'm doomed never to be able "to use Cubase to the full", because I don't have moderate intelligence (for, if I had it, I wouldn't have thought you were using "convolution" in the technical sense). Fortunately for me, I don't actually want to use it to the full - I just want to be able to use the small corner of Cubase that deals with the way I make my music, and use it to the depth required to make things sound like real performances.

BTW, as of today, I'm going to use the word "tomato" to mean any food that isn't green. I think anyone with at least moderate intelligence will know what I actually mean when I ask for a tomato.

Como Baila
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Como Baila »

'as a spasmodic chortle burst forth, Como barely managed to avoid spewing his partially masticated mouthful on the computer screen'

'Words mean what I want them to mean when I want them to mean that.'
Paraphrasing the Hookah Smoking Caterpillar in Alice In Wonderland.

"It all depends what 'is' means." Quoting Bill Clinton.

Como
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Split
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Split »

Please excuse me for butting in... He said butt...

But isn't this all getting a bit... em, convoluted?
??????Split
Cubase 10|MOTU 16A
Still at it... just!

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

chase wrote:
Conman wrote:I do credit the forum members with at least moderate intelligence enough to tell I'm not talking about a math concept but a variable sound reproduction process. If they didn't have that intelligence they'd never be able to use Cubase to the full.
Unfortunately (it seems) for me, when you were talking about convolution in the context of digital audio, I did think you meant convolution in the technical sense, ie as used in digital audio.

TBH, I've never before known the word "convolution" to be used to describe a "variable sound process" - and TBH I'm not actually sure what that might include: things like "round-robin" samples, perhaps? (used to stop repeated notes sounding too similar); phasing? flanging? free-running oscilators that don't re-start at a particular part of a wave form when a note is triggered? the liberal use of MIDI Continuous Controllers to breathe life into samples? any live (real) instrument? -- Do all real instruments exhibit "convolution" (in this sense) whenever they're played?

Anyway, now I know I'm doomed never to be able "to use Cubase to the full", because I don't have moderate intelligence (for, if I had it, I wouldn't have thought you were using "convolution" in the technical sense). Fortunately for me, I don't actually want to use it to the full - I just want to be able to use the small corner of Cubase that deals with the way I make my music, and use it to the depth required to make things sound like real performances.

BTW, as of today, I'm going to use the word "tomato" to mean any food that isn't green. I think anyone with at least moderate intelligence will know what I actually mean when I ask for a tomato.
I'm still learning and I bow to the man who obviously knows it all. :mrgreen:

Convolution is an adjective or describing word and not a noun like "tomato". And tomatoes can also be green.
Last edited by Conman on Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

Split wrote:Please excuse me for butting in... He said butt...

But isn't this all getting a bit... em, convoluted?

:mrgreen: I see you understood me. See. The forum members are intelligent as I said.
Do all real instruments exhibit "convolution" (in this sense) whenever they're played?
Yes. That's why they're hard to emulate. Sorry, synthesise (in case you thought I meant "tomato").
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

Como Baila
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Como Baila »

Split wrote:Please excuse me for butting in... He said butt...

But isn't this all getting a bit... em, convoluted?
I'm a little unclear whether you are using "butt" mathematically, as common parlance or somewhat 'tomatoish?'

Como
Win7x64 C6-32 Intel MOBO Dual Dualcore Xeon 3ghz Processors - RME Multiface II PCIe - Echo Layla24 - Mackie 824 Monitors - Mackie Controller Universal Pro - Mackie Big Knob - 2 UAD2 Quads - Novation SL 61 MK II - StudioLogic 880 Pro - Roland XV5080 - Korg Radias R - Emu CS PK-7 - MOTU Midi Timepiece AV Parallel - A Designs Pacifica - Mackie Onyx 800R - Mics - Controllers - Software - Stuff

Guest

Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Guest »

popmann wrote:Also...have you seen any difference between using an instrument track versus the instrument rack+midi track?
No difference, both have random shifts in time.

With the MIDI Monitor I did log the difference between data send on one channel (MIDI Out) and data received on the other channel (MIDI In) on 120BPM. So both log's should be the same. I did the tests several times with timestamp enabled and disabled, no difference in result though.

The result speaks for itself (observe Length and Position).

MIDI Monitor Log Midi Out (programmed):

Code: Select all

   Status     Val1 Val2 Val3   Ch.  Length          Position     Comment
======================================================================================
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        3.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        4.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        4.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        4.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        4.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        5.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        5.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        5.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        5.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        6.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        6.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        6.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        6.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        7.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        7.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        7.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        7.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        8.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        8.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        8.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        8.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        9.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        9.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        9.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        9.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        10.01.01.000                 
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        10.02.01.000                 
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        10.03.01.000                 
Note On       C2   100  64    1     118.000        10.04.01.000                 
MIDI Monitor Log Midi In (recorded):

Code: Select all

   Status     Val1 Val2 Val3   Ch.  Length          Position     Comment
======================================================================================
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.720        3.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        4.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.760        4.02.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.440        4.03.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.760        4.04.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        5.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.760        5.02.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        5.03.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.760        5.04.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.120        6.01.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.440        6.02.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        6.03.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        6.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.120        7.01.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        7.02.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        7.03.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.440        7.04.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        8.01.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        8.02.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     114.800        8.03.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.120        8.04.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        9.01.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        9.02.01.001                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        9.03.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        9.04.01.000                  
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.400        10.01.01.001                 
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        10.02.01.001                 
Note On       C2   100  64    2     116.080        10.03.01.001                 
Note On       C2   100  64    2     115.120        10.04.01.002                 
So it is save to say: "On my system* MIDI timing in Cubase is NOT consistent!"

Edit: *System: Asus P5WDH-Deluxe, Quad 2 Core Q6600, DDR2 PC-5300, GeForce 7900GS silent
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Conman
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Conman »

Mid timing is inconsistent full stop. NOTHING to do with Cubase.
I'm afraid this is going up it's own RRRRRRRs. :mrgreen:

I've explained the problem to you. Get over it. Move on.

And don't forget to ask for a bunch of jitters next time you're at the grocers. :mrgreen:
Asus P6T deluxe; Core i7 920 2.67gHz; 12gig ram; Win7 Pro SP1; Roland Octa-Capture usb inteface; Cubase 6; and no 3rd party additions couple of hard drives PSU 750watt; NVidia GE Force 9600.
"An entrepreneur accepts that the world is the way that it is and goes about changing it rather than waiting for someone to make it easy for them."

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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by TS-12 »

Win7 64bit/i7-920/8GB RAM/ASUS P6T/e-GeForce 7200GS
-Cubase / PreSonus StudoLive 16.4.2
Korg Tr-rack/ Fantom G6

Yogimeister
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by Yogimeister »

BUMP ! ;)

Just discovered this since starting to use external synths/mixers and bouncing alot of audio in cubase (before that it was just offlining a laden project .... Not so say I didnt have those problems in offline - but definitely have em in realtime bouncing of external synths.

It was also more noticeable to me at high bpm projects.
I currently am getting drifts of 3 and 6 samples @145 BPM, 48K (cubase 5.52, winXP)

My cubase is not synced to my (Sonic Core) card. I am currently studying the problem and will try external sync (never used it)


Any updated conclusions on the matter ?

TS-12
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Re: Midi Jitter during playback !!!

Post by TS-12 »

I also noticed that when rendering midi Instrument to audio , you can early see the timings slightly different on every hit
Win7 64bit/i7-920/8GB RAM/ASUS P6T/e-GeForce 7200GS
-Cubase / PreSonus StudoLive 16.4.2
Korg Tr-rack/ Fantom G6

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