Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

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Jalcide
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

Advice that applies to either platform, but mostly PC as there tends to be more OS-level optimization work (including removing background services, malware, etc.):

While you're tweaking the PC to achieve its low-latency / performance holy grail, do yourself a favor and get an audio interface that enjoys a full 2048 buffer size. This will give you some wiggle room, when a mix gets demanding.

Not all audio interface drivers go that high, so you'll have to do some digging. For example: Focusrite drivers do 2048; MOTU drivers max out at 1024.

For some of my mixdowns with lots of live buss effects, a 2048 setting allowed me to work without resorting to printing entire buss stems.

Also, on the Mac vs PC thing: while emotions, opinions and loyalties can run high, the discussion is interesting and useful to me (and surely others) who are open-minded about using both platforms -- it's sort of self-adjusting, that way.

I think this discussion thread, for future forum-searching posterity, deserves one key point of balance in Apple's favor; from someone (me) who's been advocating the PC choice for bang-for-buck reasons: I'll admit that Apple is not charging more for the actual hardware components, themselves -- just the opposite.

Spec'd out and assembled from scratch, one would have to spend a considerable amount more: Apple's $9,599.00 configuration would be $14,309.89 if home-built as a PC! Pretty awesome of Apple to do this. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/12/ ... -its-parts

One might even take this as a sign Apple's willing to absorb some costs, in some areas, in an attempt to ensure the Mac Pro creative professional pipeline has a secure future. In a way, perhaps somewhat of an olive branch to those who stayed true to Apple during their Mac Pro hiatus. And, as a way to attract or win over those who didn't.

I'll confess, this knowledge does soften my view of "never again" with an Apple workstation-class purchase.

That said, I just can't get past the raw physics advantage of upgrading a motherboard and CPU around other perfectly good, albeit older, parts.

For example, the benchmarks of my rack-mounted PC's $300.00 CPU upgrade and its 14646 Geekbench score vs a new, cheapest configuration Mac Pro of 2999.00 and its 14207 Geekbench score, speaks for itself. This is the kind of bang-for-buck, painless, sustainable path I wanna be on.

But, for someone wanting to buy new hardware each time, for whatever reasons, holy smokes is the Mac Pro "cheap" for its parts. Apple has to be losing money on them.

The Mac Pros are a very good "new computer" value, for sure.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by HarrySound »

One comment that been bugging me the last day or so is when someone said Desktops are going away and that Macs will also go away.
This just isn't true.
The way I see it is that us lot, the people who care about computers and the stuff they do, all bought a computer to do our thing at the beginning of this 10-20 year technology boom.
The casual web browser customer also bought a PC, just to get online and shop and connect with people when the internet came along.
Now the casual web browsing customer is quite rightly buying a tablet and whats left over is us, the hardcore.
Naturally the desktop market will deflate but there will ALWAYS be a need for a desktop class PC/Mac/Computer/Workstation/Studio/Rig.

In my view.....People like are Apple are always going to be safe. I mean look at the specs of that Mac Pro.
PC hardware manufacturers are also safe and will continue.
People who farm out average cheap PC's like HP (Hp still in business?) Samsung, Asus, Acer etc etc are going to take a huge hit in that particular market due to Jenny Jones deciding to email and do household accounts on her iPad Air.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Jalcide wrote:
For example, the benchmarks of my rack-mounted PC's $300.00 CPU upgrade and its 14646 Geekbench score vs a new, cheapest configuration Mac Pro of 2999.00 and its 14207 Geekbench score, speaks for itself. This is the kind of bang-for-buck, painless, sustainable path I wanna be on.

But, for someone wanting to buy new hardware each time, for whatever reasons, holy smokes is the Mac Pro "cheap" for its parts. Apple has to be losing money on them.

The Mac Pros are a very good "new computer" value, for sure.
It seems like you're contradicting yourself. First you say that a $300 CPU upgrade gives you the same level of geekbench score as a brand new MacPro (and I'm sure it's true), and then you say the latter is a "good value"? Seriously? $2,000 just to upgrade the RAM to 64gb. Good value? You're joking, right? And, of course, you just can't use third-party RAM. Like you can't use a third-party GPU (and yes there are better models than what Apple offers) or even a third-party drive. If any other maker had put the current MacPro on the market, all the tech "journalists" would have chastised it as complete madness, because basically it's an iPad, as you'd have to accept it as it is, without the possibility to change anything. This is something a professional can't accept.

You can build a PC that trounces the $9,000 dustbin in every department for about $4,000.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by dr4kan »

papi61 wrote:
Jalcide wrote:
For example, the benchmarks of my rack-mounted PC's $300.00 CPU upgrade and its 14646 Geekbench score vs a new, cheapest configuration Mac Pro of 2999.00 and its 14207 Geekbench score, speaks for itself. This is the kind of bang-for-buck, painless, sustainable path I wanna be on.

But, for someone wanting to buy new hardware each time, for whatever reasons, holy smokes is the Mac Pro "cheap" for its parts. Apple has to be losing money on them.

The Mac Pros are a very good "new computer" value, for sure.
It seems like you're contradicting yourself. First you say that a $300 CPU upgrade gives you the same level of geekbench score as a brand new MacPro (and I'm sure it's true), and then you say the latter is a "good value"? Seriously? $2,000 just to upgrade the RAM to 64gb. Good value? You're joking, right? And, of course, you just can't use third-party RAM. Like you can't use a third-party GPU (and yes there are better models than what Apple offers) or even a third-party drive. If any other maker had put the current MacPro on the market, all the tech "journalists" would have chastised it as complete madness, because basically it's an iPad, as you'd have to accept it as it is, without the possibility to change anything. This is something a professional can't accept.

You can build a PC that trounces the $9,000 dustbin in every department for about $4,000.
After the Jalcide's post I was waiting for your reply...
Did you read the article he linked? Apparently you didn't. The article just says that if you try to assembly a PC with the same hardware as the top of the line Mac Pro you will end up spending the 50% more than what Apple charges you. Do you have arguments to prove they are wrong? I bet you don't.

You just keep writing the same things...and most of them are wrong such as:
- you just can't use third-party RAM ---> False
- or even a third-party drive ---> False
- basically it's an iPad (...) without the possibility to change anything ---> False
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

So, where is the 16-core MacPro?

You do realize that this beast costs LESS than the "magic dustbin". don't you? And you do realize that a 16-core E5 outperforms a 12-core E5, don't you?

http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/04/how- ... e-mac-pro/

BTW, that article is ludicrous and wildly inaccurate.

"If you’re curious, a maxed-out 2013 Mac Pro, complete with a 12-core processor, 64GB of RAM, 1TB of flash storage, and dual FirePro D700 GPUs, will set you back a cool $9599."

http://www.macworld.com/article/2082515 ... -pros.html

I don't see dual W9000's mentioned anywhere (except in that ridiculous article.) The $9.5k MacPro comes with dual D700's. And two D700's cost WAY LESS than $7,000. In fact, a tad over $2,000, for TWO cards. Needless to say, there are BETTER options than the D700 for PC's. With the MacPro, you're stuck with whatever Apple decides it's best for you. So, no 16-cores and no top-of-the-line GPU's. And it'll still cost you more...
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Wolfie2112 »

dr4kan wrote:
papi61 wrote:
Jalcide wrote:
You just keep writing the same things...and most of them are wrong such as:
- you just can't use third-party RAM ---> False
- or even a third-party drive ---> False
- basically it's an iPad (...) without the possibility to change anything ---> False
Exactly. A colleague recently ordered a 6-core unit with stock Ram because 3rd party Ram is already available online for a fraction of the cost. Plus, his existing 3rd party drives will be used via T-bolt and USB. To compare it with an iPod is just silly :lol: . The latest benchmarks are awesome, and when you really dig into the Mac Pro, it's a beast. Not for everyone obviously, but a nice machine nonetheless. Certain people will have already made up their minds, so there's no point in trying to prove anything to them. For everyone else though, it will be cool to hear about experiences with the Mac Pro in order to make an educated judgment call.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

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papi61 wrote: It seems like you're contradicting yourself. First you say that a $300 CPU upgrade gives you the same level of geekbench score as a brand new MacPro (and I'm sure it's true), and then you say the latter is a "good value"? Seriously? $2,000 just to upgrade the RAM to 64gb. Good value? You're joking, right?
I said a good "new computer" value. It's not a contradiction because we're only talking about someone in the market for buying a new computer each time. Specifically, a PC with those exact parts would be significantly more expensive than the price Apple has marked them at. It appears to be a strategic move on Apple's part. Are any other large, PC-oriented OEM's offering similar cost savings on a full, new computer? Probably, I have not checked. That would be an interesting nugget to add to the dialog.

Btw, this is all very timely for me as I'm building a new DAW. One thing I've been trying to find is how tightly does the Geekbench score correlate to real-time audio effects. Since the largest part of the score is FPU (floating-point) and that's what most plugins want, it should be close. I've found this to be true, but have found some interesting and troubling (to me) results. If it proves to be true, the Mac Pro may be looking even more attractive. More to come, but some results are putting into question the usefulness of that Geekbench score. Right now, I've got an old, cheap PC from around 2010 I'm wanting to re-purpose for audio, at a 8059 Geekbench score running less plugins than a much older (2006) Mac Pro with a 5700 Geekbench score. Same plugins, same DAW (Reaper) and same Focusrite Pro 40 audio interface.

I think it's not so much CPU as an ASIO vs Core Audio thing, which makes it even stranger because ASIO usually does better at lower latencies (lower buffer sizes) than OS X Core Audio (as documented over at Dawbench), but here in this high latency situation (2048 buffer size) the Mac Pro is winning in this specific case. I don't get it. I has to be some setting, somewhere I'm not seeing. Or the fact the PC is an AMD Phenom II processor. But CPU utilization is only 15%, while the RT (real-time) meter in Reaper show 99% (and audio crackles), so it doesn't seem CPU-related. Anyway, more to come on this odd result.

I've got a very specific mastering chain that I want a dedicated computer to run. Right now that old Mac Pro is running it, but I want to add a couple things to it, and it's at its limit. I then want to re-purpose the Mac Pro as a dedicated box for other work-related things, so it's a good move for me that will make the most of old hardware.

I was thinking the 2010 PC would surely run this chain, plus my new additions, if the 2006 Mac Pro did ... sigh. This whole VST Performance meter / RT Performance meter / ASIO / Core Audio stuff is a very frustrating area of mystery.

We need you Dawbench guy, where are you? :cry: :lol:
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Wolfie2112 wrote:Certain people will have already made up their minds, so there's no point in trying to prove anything to them.
Hilarious projection. I PROVED you that the MacPro does NOT come with the W9000 GPU's as indicated by that cult website (and I proved it by quoting another cult website, one a bit more honest...) but with a couple of more humble D700's, and therefore the entire article is based on a lie. But you don't care, because you have already accepted a LIE, that Apple products are actually cheaper than their competition. And no amount of truth can EVER wake you up. Instead, what you do is insult me. Because of course you're in no position to actually debate me.
Last edited by papi61 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Jalcide wrote: Specifically, a PC with those exact parts would be significantly more expensive than the price Apple has marked them at.
Is anybody paying attention here?

I already proved you that the article is based on a LIE. The 9.5k MacPro does NOT come with two W9000 GPU's but with two D700's, which don't cost $7,000 but in fact around $2,000.

In case you missed it the first time, here it is, again:

"If you’re curious, a maxed-out 2013 Mac Pro, complete with a 12-core processor, 64GB of RAM, 1TB of flash storage, and dual FirePro D700 GPUs, will set you back a cool $9599."

http://www.macworld.com/article/2082515 ... -pros.html

Also the other components are based on RETAIL prices and guess what, outside of Apple fairy land, there is COMPETITION and NOBODY buys at retail price. On the CPU only I can easily save $300-400.


AND NOW, LET'S DO SOME REAL INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.

MacPro
---------

6-core Xeon E5-1650 v2
16 gb
d500
OCZ 256gb SSD

$3,999

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

Let's see how the parts REALLY cost:
-----------------------------------------------

6-core Xeon E5-1650 v2 $583 (retail price. You can get a SIMILAR CPU on the market for about $150 less. That particular model isn't very popular.)

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/2013 ... nched.html

16gb RAM (best on the market) $179

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820233299

The D500 GPU is specifically made for the MacPro, so you cannot buy it separately for a PC. But AMD sells one with roughly the same features, and it costs $1,098.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814105006

OCZ 256gb SSD $214.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820227967

ASUS Z9PE-D8 WS mobo $539.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131817

Case $50
PSU $80

Grand total: $2,744.98
----------------------------

That's a whopping $1254.02 LESS than the cost of the 6-core MacPro. Of course the more expensive MacPro you pick, the more it will cost compared to a similarly-equipped PC.
Last edited by papi61 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

papi61 wrote:
Jalcide wrote: Specifically, a PC with those exact parts would be significantly more expensive than the price Apple has marked them at.
Is anybody paying attention here?

I already proved you that the article is based on a LIE. The 9.5k MacPro does NOT come with two W9000 GPU's but with two D700's, which don't cost $7,000 but in fact around $2,000.

In case you missed it the first time, here it is, again:

"If you’re curious, a maxed-out 2013 Mac Pro, complete with a 12-core processor, 64GB of RAM, 1TB of flash storage, and dual FirePro D700 GPUs, will set you back a cool $9599."

http://www.macworld.com/article/2082515 ... -pros.html


Also the other components are based on RETAIL price and guess what, outside of Apple fairy land, there is COMPETITION and NOBODY buys at retail price. On the CPU only I can easily save $300-400.
Some good points, but we can't compare vanilla, non-customized D700's, because Apple has bumped up their specs. That's why the reviewer chose an off-the-shelf card with specs as closely matched as possible.

"Driving the displays in our hypothetical rig are two AMD FirePro W9000 GPUs at $3,399.99 each. They match the Mac Pro's cards on spec with 6GB of GDDR5 memory and 264Gbps memory bandwidth, though it is difficult to say exactly how well they mimic Apple's heavily customized units."

As for the two other high-priced components, I was only able to find the 12-core E5-2697 about two hundred bucks cheaper than the article's 2749.99, at 2531.98. You said, "300-400" so let's go with that number.

The cheapest (and the site looked sketchy) I could find for the OCZ 960G was around 1700.00, much cheaper than the article's 3000.00. So you're right about the retail prices being cherry picked in that article.

But, unless those customized D700's suck, compared to the W9000's, the around 2k savings we might get still does not negate the 4710.00 saving the article purports. It appears that there is still a two thousand dollars, give or take, savings.

It seems the benchmarks of those customized D700's will tell the full story.
papi61 wrote: AND NOW, LET'S DO SOME REAL INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.

MacPro
---------

6-core Xeon E5-1650 v2
16 gb
d500
OCZ 256gb SSD

$3,999

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

Let's see how the parts REALLY cost:
-----------------------------------------------

...

Grand total: $2,744.98

That's a whopping $1254.02 LESS than the cost of the 6-core MacPro. Of course the more expensive MacPro you pick, the more it will cost compared to a similarly-equipped PC.
Yup, you're right. For sure, the lower-end Mac Pros can be home-built cheaper.

This is why I'm doing it. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Jalcide on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Jalcide wrote:
As for the two other high-priced components, I was only able to find the 12-core E5-2697 about two hundred bucks cheaper than the article's 2749.99, at 2531.98. You said, "300-400" so let's go with that number.
Here it is, $300 less, after a mere 30-second search:

http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?p=E ... QgodOHcAag

Also consider that all this stuff is pretty new, and in just a matter of months, prices will fall (but ESPECIALLY on the GPU's...) Except for Apple hardware, of course, whose prices NEVER follow the market. Which means the MacPro will become even more ridiculously expensive.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

papi61 wrote:...Except for Apple hardware, of course, whose prices NEVER follow the market. Which means the MacPro will become even more ridiculously expensive.
Yes, this has indeed been true.

I have a sneaking suspicion Apple is going to change its ways, on this, for future Mac Pro updates.

If they continue their old bait-and-switch ways of the past -- for those tied to the Mac Pro pipeline / ecosystem -- it will be a facepalm-moment, for sure.

We shall see.
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Node 2 - 16 Channel Stem Summing via VEP: VEP 6, Win 10, i5-4690K 3.9Ghz, Gigabyte Z97MX, 16GB, Intel HD 4600 Gfx, rtpMIDI

Node 3 - 2 Channel Mastering Chain via ADAT Optical: Reaper, Win 7, i5-4670K @ 4.1GHz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Nvidia GeForce 210, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, rtpMIDI

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by dr4kan »

dear papi61, you did not do your homework right...

your price computation is really really biased.
for example, you did not considered the 6 thunderbolt 2 ports with 3 different chipset, which does NOT come with the motherboard you chose.
for example the Mac Pro does NOT use SATA SSD (which is quite cheap now) but PCIe-based flash storage, which is more fast and way more expensive.
for example you chose 1600 MHz ram instead of 1800 MHz (used in Mac Pro)
for example you chose the cheapest plastic-ish case in the market
for example what about the 12db at idle? does it come for free for you?
for example the compact size of the Mac Pro, does it come for free? (I love that, I could in principle bring it back and forth from my studio to my home)

so you complained about the article but your "journalism investigation" is even worse ;)
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

dr4kan wrote:dear papi61, you did not do your homework right...

your price computation is really really biased.
for example, you did not considered the 6 thunderbolt 2 ports with 3 different chipset, which does NOT come with the motherboard you chose.
That's pretty funny, because I picked that mobo on your cult site, the one you take as the truth and nothing other than the truth... The one where they say that is the exact mobo used on the macpro.
for example the Mac Pro does NOT use SATA SSD (which is quite cheap now) but PCIe-based flash storage, which is more fast and way more expensive.
Jalcide found the exact model quoted by that ridiculous article as a $3,000 item for $1,700. Now, how do you explain that?

for example you chose the cheapest plastic-ish case in the market
LOL, the dustbin isn't comparable to ANY case, as it has no room for any kind of expansion. And, as usual, you're forgetting that outside of Apple fairy land there is a FREE MARKET with REAL COMPETITION, and yes, you can buy a pretty good case with $50.
for example you chose 1600 MHz ram instead of 1800 MHz (used in Mac Pro)
LOL, the $3,999 MacPro comes with 4x 4gb DDR3/1866. I actually compared it with better RAM, but if you want a direct comparison, then 4x 4gb SIMM's of that 1866 RAM actually cost EVEN LESS than the 8gb modules I quoted before:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231729

So, thank you for correcting me. The RAM is only $167.96 and not $214.99 as previously quoted. ;)
for example what about the 12db at idle? does it come for free for you?
That's pretty funny, considering that your magic dustbin needs to put all the hardware a PROFESSIONAL needs OUTSIDE (wait, let me guess, now you're saying that it's OK to put applications, samples and audio all on the same drive, right?) Start using a couple of serious external RAID modules and you'll see how that 12db quickly becomes 25... Oh yeah, of course, you can put the RAID's inside a high-quality noise-reducing case, but how much more would you have to pay for that?
the compact size of the Mac Pro, does it come for free?
It actually comes at a ridiculous compromise that no one outside of Apple fairy land would accept. So, now everything has be external. The pros who aren't into the Apple religion are laughing their derrieres off. The only reason other brands haven't tried that approach is because their customers would not accept it.
so you complained about the article but your "journalism investigation" is even worse ;)
No, it's not, since I easily shot down all your points.
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Wolfie2112 »

papi61 wrote:
Wolfie2112 wrote:Certain people will have already made up their minds, so there's no point in trying to prove anything to them.
Hilarious projection. I PROVED you that the MacPro does NOT come with the W9000 GPU's as indicated by that cult website (and I proved it by quoting another cult website, one a bit more honest...) but with a couple of more humble D700's, and therefore the entire article is based on a lie. But you don't care, because you have already accepted a LIE, that Apple products are actually cheaper than their competition. And no amount of truth can EVER wake you up. Instead, what you do is insult me. Because of course you're in no position to actually debate me.


Not sure what's in that article, nor do I care. My Mac works exactly how I need it to, doesn't crash, and has already paid for itself twice over since purchasing in November. Nothing else to prove. ;)

I am curious though to see a 12 core PC with the exact same specs as the MP! Heck, I haven't even seen one with more than one Thunderbolt port.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

Interesting development. I may have solved the mystery of why my 2006 Mac Pro Quad-Core Xeon with its 4819 Geekbench score (taken fresh tonight -- it varies slightly each time), will process my real-time mastering chain when my 2010 AMD Phenom II 6-Core with its 7543 score, won't.

It's all about the floating-point section of the Geekbench score. Specifically, these 8 sections appear useful to audio and DSP:

SGEMM (single-core)
SGEMM (multi-core)
DGEMM (single-core)
DGEMM (single-core)
SFFT (single-core)
SFFT (multi-core)
DFFT (single-core)
DFFT (multi-core)

Within those, the "single-core" I think are the most important. One then multiplies that single-core score times how many cores are in the CPU they're interested in purchasing. This is different than the "multi-core" score, too. My theory here is that most plugins live on individual cores.

I'm seeing some experimental evidence that supports my hypothesis (so, somewhat scientific-method-esque? :) ). Here we go:

The 2006 Mac Pro's Xeon -- that will run (just barely) my desired live effects --- gives me the following scores:

SGEMM (single-core): 1485
SGEMM (multi-core): 4581
DGEMM (single-core): 1434
DGEMM (multi-core): 4308
SFFT (single-core): 1910
SFFT (multi-core): 5957
DFFT (single-core): 1796
DFFT (multi-core): 5309

The 2010 AMD Phenom II -- that fails to run (just barely) my desired live effects --- gives me the following scores:

SGEMM (single-core): 1630
SGEMM (multi-core): 8073
DGEMM (single-core): 1698
DGEMM (multi-core): 7997
SFFT (single-core): 2121
SFFT (multi-core): 10099
DFFT (single-core): 2010
DFFT (multi-core): 9581

First off, notice how the single-core differences between those 4-year separated CPUs are remarkably close. The only real strides were in the multi-core score which appear not to matter for most audio plugins, cuz if they did, that Phenom would have run my mastering chain with flying colors.

This might also explain why computers, that have been getting faster and faster, don't seem to be doing audio in scale with that. Sure, they're better, but not that much better. But I digress...

So even though the AMD is slightly better than the ancient Xeon, plugins may be more optimized on the Intel instruction set, somehow (not sure), but even if not, the other ASIO vs Core Audio factors (at the high buffer sizes) might be just enough to push that old Mac Pro into the green.

Anyway, the main point is that I suspect one can toss out that main Geekbench number and even the main Floating-point Number and just look at those eight scores; specifically, the four single-core scores within that section.

If this is right, it's awesome news!

What a great tool this could be in researching a new DAW purchase.

Btw, I also tested the numbers against my 2013 i7 3770k and it matched up with the results I'm seeing almost perfectly. So, I think I'm on to something here.

Here are my i7 3770k scores:

SGEMM (single-core): 4168
SGEMM (multi-core): 20747
DGEMM (single-core): 4041
DGEMM (multi-core): 20028
SFFT (single-core): 3665
SFFT (multi-core): 15622
DFFT (single-core): 3507
DFFT (multi-core): 15135

Looking at the single-core scores, this does match up with what I'm seeing: about 3x the number of plugins, give or take, compared to that old 2006 Mac Pro. That's kind of mind-blowing and explains why that old Mac has so much life left in it. Also interesting: almost all the gains seemed to have happened in the last few years. Let's hope the trend continues, as it will be good news to DAW owners.

It will be an interesting exercise to compare this to the online Geekbench scores of the Xeon 12-core. If so, I feel like I'd have a good intuition of what to expect. Just take that single-core average across those four areas, see how it compares to the i7 3770, then imagine those gains as 4 cores. Then to get intuition about 12 cores, just multiply times 3. It should be that linear.
Last edited by Jalcide on Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Node 1 - VSTi Hosting via VEP: VEP 6 (& Sonar Platinum), Win 7, i7-4770K @ 4.0Ghz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, NI Kore 1 Controller, rtpMIDI

Node 2 - 16 Channel Stem Summing via VEP: VEP 6, Win 10, i5-4690K 3.9Ghz, Gigabyte Z97MX, 16GB, Intel HD 4600 Gfx, rtpMIDI

Node 3 - 2 Channel Mastering Chain via ADAT Optical: Reaper, Win 7, i5-4670K @ 4.1GHz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Nvidia GeForce 210, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, rtpMIDI

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Wolfie2112 wrote: My Mac works exactly how I need it to, doesn't crash, and has already paid for itself twice over since purchasing in November.
Once again, you're hinting that a windows machine doesn't work like it needs to, crashes all the time and it's a bad investment. :roll:
Nothing else to prove. ;)
Actually, when you make a point, you have to prove it, or else it's worthless. You claimed that windows machines don't work unless heavily tweaked. I know, you won't even try to prove it because it's not true. Tweaking adds extra power, but if you don't tweak, it will work just like your mac. Only faster and more efficiently. You know, it's like overclocking. You don't NEED to overclock, but it's nice to have that POSSIBILITY. One that no Apple machine will ever offer you.
I am curious though to see a 12 core PC with the exact same specs as the MP! Heck, I haven't even seen one with more than one Thunderbolt port.
Well, it's pretty obvious that you don't know much about computers. FYI, there are 16-core PC's out there with better specs than the MacPro. But, of course, you aren't aware of that and you're not even interested, because reality doesn't fit your prejudice.

Oh, and BTW, the MacPro is based on a commercially-available ASUS mobo. It can have as many Thunderbolt ports as you wish. But I bet you believe Apple invented Thunderbolt and no amount of reality will have you change mind. Incidentally, after many years, Thunderbolt still has to prove as a viable protocol. The number of TB peripherals on the market is EXTREMELY limited. It's nice to have ALTERNATIVES to TB. Alternatives that Apple will NOT provide, because with them it's either their way or the highway.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Do you want to build the ultimate workstation for film music/orchestral mockups? Buy/build three 4770k's and connect them via VEP. They will cost like a SINGLE Xeon machine (less, if made by Apple...) but they will give you about 6-7 times more CPU power.
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

papi61 wrote:
Jalcide wrote:
Here are my i7 3770k scores:

SGEMM (single-core): 4168
SGEMM (multi-core): 20747
DGEMM (single-core): 4041
DGEMM (multi-core): 20028
SFFT (single-core): 3665
SFFT (multi-core): 15622
DFFT (single-core): 3507
DFFT (multi-core): 15135
Bingo.

And that's precisely why I went with 3770k instead of a Xeon CPU. Do you want to build the ultimate workstation for film music/orchestral mockups? Buy/build three 4770k's and connect them via VEP. They will cost you LESS than a SINGLE Xeon machine (especially if made by Apple...) but they will give you about 6-7 times more CPU power.
Yeah, I've been considering doing just that, with VEP. It's just a shame the i-series Intel processors can't be multi-CPU like Xeon can. They won't let you put two i7 4770k's on a single motherboard -- you have to jump up to the Xeon's for that. It would would be such a great bang-for-the-buck. Clearly, it's all price-points and marketing. I bet all those chips come off the same assembly line before they have the artificial limits put on them.

The only thing that kept me from VEP, were all the moving parts and a nightmare workflow for going mobile. But I'd choose that solution over a proprietary UAD card / dongle. :lol:

In the end I found my multi-cpu load balancing holy grail by going with two PC's interconnected via two Focusrite Pro 40's ADAT optical cables. One runs Cubase and is my main DAW, the other runs Reaper and is a real-time mastering chain / 2-buss (offloading buss compression, etc.). It's sortof a VEP style setup, in that sense. But the clean line of decoupling (mastering chain) keeps the project low-latency (when the mastering chain is disengaged) and mobile-friendly without the extra moving parts of VEP.

With the bonus of forcing me to mixdown with no buss, pre-mastering or mastering effects cooked into it. So, I have the flexibility of re-mastering later. My mastering chain was large enough (CPU demanding enough) that it made sense.

The whole thing -- the two 4U rack PCs, two Focusrites and a Furman power conditioner -- fits in an 11U high rack (that fits under a standard desk height) and operates and a "single" parallel processing DAW, if you will -- a "system."

I love it. It's the best "studio" I ever had.
Last edited by Jalcide on Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://soundcloud.com/jalcide

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Main: Studio One V3 (Cubase Pro 9.0.1 on ice until future update solves some issues), Win 7 64-bit, i7-4790K @ 4.6GHz, ASUS Maximus VI Gene Z87 mATX, 16GB, EVGA GTX 760, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 on a Vantect FireWire 400 PCIe (UGT-FW200), CMC Controllers (2 FDs, PD, QC, CH, AI, TP), 2 NI Kontrol F1 Controllers, Roland JD-Xi, rtpMIDI, Bome MIDI Translator Pro

Node 1 - VSTi Hosting via VEP: VEP 6 (& Sonar Platinum), Win 7, i7-4770K @ 4.0Ghz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, NI Kore 1 Controller, rtpMIDI

Node 2 - 16 Channel Stem Summing via VEP: VEP 6, Win 10, i5-4690K 3.9Ghz, Gigabyte Z97MX, 16GB, Intel HD 4600 Gfx, rtpMIDI

Node 3 - 2 Channel Mastering Chain via ADAT Optical: Reaper, Win 7, i5-4670K @ 4.1GHz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Nvidia GeForce 210, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, rtpMIDI

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Elektrobolt »

HarrySound wrote:One comment that been bugging me the last day or so is when someone said Desktops are going away and that Macs will also go away.
This just isn't true.
Opinions and predictions galore... everyone's a bleeding Nostradamus.
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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Wolfie2112 »

papi61 wrote:
Wolfie2112 wrote: My Mac works exactly how I need it to, doesn't crash, and has already paid for itself twice over since purchasing in November.
Once again, you're hinting that a windows machine doesn't work like it needs to, crashes all the time and it's a bad investment. :roll:
Once again, if you read my posts, I said Windows has always been solid for me...what part don't you get? I STILL USE Windows machines professionally. I also never claimed Mac's are 100% a better investment; all I'm saying is that I prefer to work on Mac and it's been good to me. What's the problem? Are you saying that guys like James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard are idiots because they use Mac? Of course you are. Do we all care? Absolutely not. We all just want to produce music in a way that works for us...whether its Windows, Mac, Atari, Commodore 64 (or Vic 20 if you're old enough), Amiga, pen and paper, or whatever. You certainly like to bash everyone that doesn't agree with you, as noted in other forums.

Anyways, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! :D

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Wolfie2112 wrote:Are you saying that guys like James Horner, Trevor Rabin and James Newton Howard are idiots because they use Mac? Of course you are.
No, I'm not. They use mac because they're old and not very tech-savvy and they can't get accustomed to another OS. Not everybody is like Hans Zimmer (who dumped all of his macs for custom-made PC's), who's really young at heart. But if you knew their rigs (and it's obvious that you don't...), you'd know that they're full of PC slaves that actually take the brunt of the heavy loads. What does that tell you? Well, obviously to you nothing...
You certainly like to bash everyone that doesn't agree with you, as noted in other forums.
And you keep rehashing that completely unsubstantiated LIE as if it were a truth. But then again, you're the guy who believes that it's just impossible that a PC can be better than a MacPro or that it can have a Thunderbolt port... No amount of reality can convince you otherwise. So, like all Apple fanboys, you demonize everyone who dares to criticize your cult. So, now I'm a monster... :roll: And all fanboys like you take it as an unquestionable truth (without posting any EVIDENCE for that, obviously...), even one Steinberg moderator.
all I'm saying is that I prefer to work on Mac
No, what you repeatedly said is that without heavy tweaking windows machines wouldn't even be viable for music. I countered your silly and baseless argument with FACTS and you just keep rehashing it, because facts are meaningless to you.
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

Slaves: 2x i7 2700k, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 3 TB SATA III, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

Jalcide wrote: The only thing that kept me from VEP, were all the moving parts and a nightmare workflow for going mobile. But I'd choose that solution over a proprietary UAD card / dongle. :lol:
Moving parts? You mean the network cables? Rack mount the three machines and they will all be in a single box with wheels, no need to ever unplug and replug them. But then again, who needs all that power on stage? :lol:
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by Jalcide »

I've got exciting news to share that appears to confirm my theory about the correlation between plugin counts and certain scores found within the Geekbench test results (see my other posts above).

In researching my new mastering chain DAW, I went to Geekbench and looked at those SGEMM, DGEMM, SFFT and DFFT scores and found something unexpected:

The cheaper, i5-4670K was showing higher scores (in those key floating-point areas) than even the premium i7-4770K CPU! Whuuuut?

So, I bought that puppy.

It worked in this awesome, strange way I predicted: A lower overall Geekbench score compared to my 4.2Ghz clocked i7-3770 (by almost 4000 points), but with slightly higher SGEMM, DGEMM, SFFT, DFFT single-core scores at an even less clock of 4.0Ghz!

Wow. That is crazy.

The confirmation was when my new i5-4670K mastering chain DAW ran all the plugins I wanted; even more plugins (in the same project file) than the faster i7-3770 (I suspect it might apply to the i7-4770 as well, but have not tested).

So, right now that cheaper i5-4670K may be the best non-server (or extreme) processor for digital audio. And at a street-price of 199.00 bucks; a floating-point powerhouse.

The whole upgrade only needed to consist of a new motherboard and the CPU, everything else (including RAM) stayed the same. So, my whole "new DAW" (so to speak) only set me back 244.00. Not bad.

I still need to do more testing and take precise measurements before I'd call this "confirmed," but thought I'd share some preliminary results.

Now, back to makin' some music. :D
http://soundcloud.com/jalcide

4 DAW Network:

Main: Studio One V3 (Cubase Pro 9.0.1 on ice until future update solves some issues), Win 7 64-bit, i7-4790K @ 4.6GHz, ASUS Maximus VI Gene Z87 mATX, 16GB, EVGA GTX 760, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 on a Vantect FireWire 400 PCIe (UGT-FW200), CMC Controllers (2 FDs, PD, QC, CH, AI, TP), 2 NI Kontrol F1 Controllers, Roland JD-Xi, rtpMIDI, Bome MIDI Translator Pro

Node 1 - VSTi Hosting via VEP: VEP 6 (& Sonar Platinum), Win 7, i7-4770K @ 4.0Ghz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, NI Kore 1 Controller, rtpMIDI

Node 2 - 16 Channel Stem Summing via VEP: VEP 6, Win 10, i5-4690K 3.9Ghz, Gigabyte Z97MX, 16GB, Intel HD 4600 Gfx, rtpMIDI

Node 3 - 2 Channel Mastering Chain via ADAT Optical: Reaper, Win 7, i5-4670K @ 4.1GHz, Asrock Pro 3 ATX, 16GB, Nvidia GeForce 210, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, rtpMIDI

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Re: Mac-osx to win7-64 bit migration

Post by papi61 »

OK, but plugin count isn't everything (granted, it depends on how you work...) I'd rather have a faster CPU that allows me to use X number of plugins rather than a slower one that gives me X+5.
Desktop: i7 3770k, 32 GB RAM, nVidia GTX770 + GT640-DCSL fanless, 3 monitors (30" 2560x1600 + 2x 27" 1920x1080), 256 GB SSD (OS), 2 TB SATA III (audio), 3 TB SATA III (sample libraries), 3x 3 TB USB 3.0 (backup/archives), RME UFX, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

Slaves: 2x i7 2700k, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 3 TB SATA III, Win 8.1 Pro x64, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5.

Laptop: 17" HP EliteBook 8770w (i7 3820QM 2.7 Ghz/3.7 Ghz max OC, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 1 TB SATA III), RME Babyface, Win 7 Pro x64, Vienna Ensemble Pro 5, Cubase 7.5, Sonar X3.

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