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Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:48 pm
by LeVzi
It would have been nice to keep this totally on topic, but for the obvious reasons it's degrading, and trolls hunt in packs, so it won't end there, seems there are numerous cases for the increase in the tempo limit. The response that I was hoping for which was that Steinberg could officially state if this can even be done or not will never happen, as it is a big secret... But I guess that can lead to the question if it can be done, then do it, there is no reason not to. Maybe a bigger can of worms, didn't think of it like that.

EDIT : JHP Refer back to my previous post which is now edited.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:42 pm
by Guest
JHP wrote:------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two tips regarding compositions, especially handy for speedcore:
1.
"Midi--> Logical Presets--> standard set 1" here you have "double tempo" and "half tempo". You can double up the tempo of your MIDI and set the tempo track down to a half of it's value.

2.
If you have a project and you have set the bpm to 300 but whish to go faster you should try this:
Create a tempo track. At the measure in which you would like to go faster jump back to 150bpm with the tempo automation, so the tempo track looks a bit like this ‾‾|---. Now copy and paste you events to the next measure where the tempo track is slower ---. Now use the "Sizing applies timestretch tool" and reduce the length of the events by a half of there size. Do this with snap on, quantize as grid type and most likely 1/2 as quantize setting, this might vary depending on the material you are working with. Now increase the tempo of the tempo track as you like it to increase the speed even more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a fair workaround to me, what does anyone else think?

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:35 am
by LeVzi
I prefer the 4/8 option, less hassle than all that.

But then i'd prefer the 4/4 method with unlocked bpm more. :D

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:02 am
by Guest
The site admin is simply pointing out that the underlying functions already exist, hence the request would require implementation of a functional (non macro) layer.

Funny this thread brought out some real animosities among cubasers about right/wrong ethics, morals etc when the subject was never about what constitutes music as opposed to noise or simply as the OP would want to design sound using MIDI.

A guy named Fredie H who used to frequent the old forum said most of the guys he knows use FL, simply because it is easier for them to use, but it is good to see a techno "freak" wanting to actually use Cubase instead and for that I commend the OP.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:08 am
by LeVzi
I came off FL to Cubase, and found I prefer Cubase's workflow a low more. It suits me more than the others, and I find I am better for it. I don't just make this extreme techno, I do normal Hardcore, Breaks and soon to be Drum n Bass. Cubase isn't the 1st choice for these styles really, but I think it could be. Most prefer logic tbh, but I am not, nor ever want to be on a mac.

I think that unlocking the bpm wouldnt require anything new, I just think it's a limit coded into the program, question remains that if that limit is raised would it mess up other functions.

And there are more than just speedcore artists who'd benefit from this now, as this thread is starting to prove.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:48 pm
by Guest
The metronome would not work, as already when you go past a certain tempo it blurs, the question would be then, when you go into "overdrive" as what is being suggested, the metronome would have to be turned off in order to keep the application stable.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:09 pm
by LeVzi
Blur ? It's only a ticking sound, the metronomes in the other sequencers cope fine.

As I suspected, Sonar too can go upto 999bpm too, seems cubase literally is the ONLY one that has a 300bpm limit.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:15 pm
by Guest
The metronome is generated at the audio output stage, thus it is not treated as an instrument.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:17 pm
by Conman
Sheesh! 5 pages on a misunderstanding of basic music notation and it's relationship with the metronome.
You could all have learned to read music by now rather than post this much.

The m'nome is basic. Wherever it is. It is an aid to timing for practise and tracking.
There is a speed at which it becomes meaningless.
The absence of it does not mean you cannot play faster. The absence of it does not mean that Levzi cannot recreate or create his chosen style of music.
999bpm is useless. Even for machines.

If you get it only you will use it and probably only twice. The music's huge (in this college), er, until next year. Then slow it down and call it Drum n Bass again. :mrgreen:

Only ribbing you.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:59 pm
by LeVzi
Probably would have only been 4 pages, if people had stuck to the topic. :D

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:57 pm
by JHP
Brains wrote:
JHP wrote:------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two tips regarding compositions, especially handy for speedcore:
1.
"Midi--> Logical Presets--> standard set 1" here you have "double tempo" and "half tempo". You can double up the tempo of your MIDI and set the tempo track down to a half of it's value.

2.
If you have a project and you have set the bpm to 300 but whish to go faster you should try this:
Create a tempo track. At the measure in which you would like to go faster jump back to 150bpm with the tempo automation, so the tempo track looks a bit like this ‾‾|---. Now copy and paste you events to the next measure where the tempo track is slower ---. Now use the "Sizing applies timestretch tool" and reduce the length of the events by a half of there size. Do this with snap on, quantize as grid type and most likely 1/2 as quantize setting, this might vary depending on the material you are working with. Now increase the tempo of the tempo track as you like it to increase the speed even more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brains wrote:Sounds like a fair workaround to me, what does anyone else think?
Here is an example project, Cubase Core. Be carefull with it.
Method 2 is very easy and quick. It took me less then five minutes to make this draft.
The melodie could use a bit more spunk and I made a counting mistake. :)
Maybe the entire track could use some more distortion. :D

This is just to demonstrate the technic.

Gr,
JHP

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:00 pm
by LeVzi
In all honesty, i've no clue what you did there. Far too over engineered for something that should be so simple.

Unlock the bpm, make life easier.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:03 pm
by Guest
Unlock the bpm, make life easier.
If the intention from hereon in is to now whinge/complain, I doubt u will find any kind of sympathetic ear, particularly when a workaround has been given.

Here is an example post from the lounge:

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... cks#p34513

Users already know there is a problem, and history shows Cubasers get on with life no matter what but making simple demands can result in either:

a) Getting yourself banned

or

b) In the very least your thread is sent to the lounge

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:50 pm
by LeVzi
Well I don't class asking for an easier life as whinging.

The example above makes no sense at all, and the other work around of 4/8 time is easier to understand. 600bpm limit is better, I guess 4/12 is 900, and 4/16 is 1200bpm, and 4/32 1500bpm ?

I get that, it is a workaround, one I now use, and I am thankful for that.

I was asked what I use yesterday, I said Cubase, their exact words were "How do use that, its crap, doesn't make any sense" So I explained a bit about it, told them to get the demo and try it, don't be intimidated by it, it's no different to anything else really. But out of devilment, I couldn't resist stating there was a 300bpm limit, and you'd need to create a time signature track and write in 4/8, meaning 150bpm=300bpm ,and if you sync anything to host, you'll need to do it in halves.

The reply was **** that i'll stick to ableton. :lol: :D :lol:

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:05 am
by -steve-
I write all my music in 4/12. ;)

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:44 am
by Vinylizor
Brains wrote:The metronome would not work, as already when you go past a certain tempo it blurs, the question would be then, when you go into "overdrive" as what is being suggested, the metronome would have to be turned off in order to keep the application stable.
What is this obsession with the metronome?

The metronome is simply a timing aid - you set it to whatever value helps you play in time!

There is no arbitrary rule that there must be 4 clicks in a 4/4 bar, in the same way that there is no set rule for the number of clicks in a 6/8 bar.

If the tempo rises to point where there only needs to be 1 click per bar then so be it. If there only needs to be 1 click every 50 bars, again it doesn't matter.

You shouldn't presume that a sequencer is for the sole use of pop musicians. Any classical musician who's worked with contemporary avante garde composers will tell you that there are no rules to tempo or the complexity of a piece of music.

Cubase should be able to handle them without fudging. However, I appreciate it may be more difficult to implement in practise than simply removing a limit that was set by programmers.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:48 am
by Guest
Vinylizor wrote:...I appreciate it may be more difficult to implement in practice than simply removing a limit that was set by programmers.
Exactly, so lets not presume that everyone uses VST for the metronome either.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:33 pm
by Conman
You shouldn't presume that a sequencer is for the sole use of pop musicians. Any classical musician who's worked with contemporary avante garde composers will tell you that there are no rules to tempo or the complexity of a piece of music.
That's plain wrong. There are rules and they have been there for about 200 years. Cubase tries to follow these basic rules AS A GUIDE to making music.

Of course there are no LIMITS to what you can do but you would need to write your own rules.

I cloud wtrie tihs in tatol girbsbieh. Would that be poetry? It may be but it doesn't make it poetry because I say so because I've bent the rules of language.

Change is slow. It's not very long ago you had to learn music in Italian.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:37 pm
by LeVzi
Conman wrote:
You shouldn't presume that a sequencer is for the sole use of pop musicians. Any classical musician who's worked with contemporary avante garde composers will tell you that there are no rules to tempo or the complexity of a piece of music.
That's plain wrong. There are rules and they have been there for about 200 years. Cubase tries to follow these basic rules AS A GUIDE to making music.

Of course there are no LIMITS to what you can do but you would need to write your own rules.

I cloud wtrie tihs in tatol girbsbieh. Would that be poetry? It may be but it doesn't make it poetry because I say so because I've bent the rules of language.

Change is slow. It's not very long ago you had to learn music in Italian.

Agreed, but times change, technology moves on, and simple things like bpm's are not restricted to things of days gone by. If Cubase, the program, HAS to limit the bpm to 300 or it stops functioning, so be it. It becomes less appealing to potential buyers for extreme music, and there are a lot, maybe not as much as other genres, but in Europe there are plenty, and at least an unlocked bpm would appeal for ease of use in comparison to other DAW's, then the rest of it comes as a bonus as you get to use Cubase in full.

On another note, every dyslexic now things you are the new Byron. :lol:

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:06 pm
by Conman
Even extreme music makers can fully function with metronomes at 300 bpm. If you're ingenious enough to write that then I don't see a problem with creatively writing say, a drum track template at 4 8 or even 16 or more beats within each bpm. Why limit your ambitions by expecting that the computer does all the (simple) work? With 5 minutes work (one minute even) you can end up with what you need.
The beauty of that is that YOU know exactly what it is rather than letting a programmer dictate what HE thinks you need and probably introducing a bug that slows you down even more severely.

Clock speeds are also tied to the clock speeds of external units too and there may well be a serious limitation with some outboard gear though I'm sure these days that that is improving. The more pulses per minute the more data can be slowed down inside the machines by fluctuations in voltage and componentry data thruput. Though the dataflow inside more recent computers should be considerably faster and more stable.
I also think that maybe the midi rate may have a lot to do with the met speed as some time ago Cubase limited itself to 192ppqn (pulses per quarter note and that even though other programs claimed 4 or even 8 times that speed Sound familiar huh?) to facilitate more efficient midi dataflow and until a new midi standard, connections and things like leads are improved it may be some time before you see a truly stable 1000bpm in Cubase. You could also google "jitter" which is a hardware problem which means midi code, among other things, becomes unstable in certain conditions which may or may not apply here. Again though there have been great improvements lately.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:13 pm
by andyjh
LeVzi wrote: Agreed, but times change, technology moves on, and simple things like bpm's are not restricted to things of days gone by. If Cubase, the program, HAS to limit the bpm to 300 or it stops functioning, so be it.
The fundamental thing that has been missed here, is that the bpm rate does NOT limit the speed at which Cubase will run at, Cubase allows very short notes, if you use those short notes then Cubase will run faster than even you want. Other sequencer programs that appear to run fast by twisting reality with high bpm's probably do not allow such short notes.

If Cubase could not play such fast notes, you may have a valid issue with it, but Cubase does go fast, it is just your misunderstanding of how Cubase works that is the problem - or rather your lack of knowledge of fundamental music basics. So there is no need for a change, Cubase already does what you need, you just don't know how to.

I am sure you will have something to say to this, so answer this, why don't you use notes with a smaller value than crotchets (1/4 notes)?

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:22 pm
by Vinylizor
Conman wrote: That's plain wrong. There are rules and they have been there for about 200 years. Cubase tries to follow these basic rules AS A GUIDE to making music.
It's not wrong. Music is over 200 years old - Mozart died in 1791, and he's not remembered as being any kind of inventor! Composers have pushed the boundaries of what is considered listenable for thousands of years, not hundreds.

Cubase is simply a midi sequencer with digital audio recording tagged on. Everything we look at on the screen is a gui designed to help convey what's being played back to us, in a similar manner to a music score. If it can't convey what can reasonably be written on a page of paper, then it's limited.
Conman wrote: Of course there are no LIMITS to what you can do but you would need to write your own rules.

I cloud wtrie tihs in tatol girbsbieh. Would that be poetry? It may be but it doesn't make it poetry because I say so because I've bent the rules of language.

Change is slow. It's not very long ago you had to learn music in Italian.
Sorry, but asking for a tempo above 300 bpm is not breaking any rules of music, and you've never had to learn music in Italian!

There's no requirement for musicians to have a thorough understanding of the history of music, but if you're gonna start quoting it, you better have your facts straight.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:56 pm
by Conman
You'll find, if you actually study music, that what I wrote is correct for European music schools. Yes, the monsters even MADE everyone learn notation, the beasts. And they made us learn it to a STANDARD, the rotten scoundrels. Furthermore, they made you learn things like minim, crotchet, quaver Andante, Prestissimo, rubato and coda etc. which, last time I looked, were mostly Italian terms.
Most of the rest of the world's music standards are just as exacting because they are languages made for musicians to communicate with each other so they knew what each other was supposed to play.

Mind you, I suppose all this is irrelevant to lone geniuses in bedrooms.

Lighten up. Eric Clapton can't write a note either but when he has to he has his own methods of communication and employs arrangers that know the above terms of standard communication and he does not write here asking that Cubase does it all his way.

The best way to learn another language is to learn your own language first.
And if you want to write a best seller it pays to learn how to read first and learn to type later.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:13 am
by Guest
It becomes less appealing to potential buyers for extreme music, and there are a lot,
In the interests of making money for Mr Steinberg I could not agree more.
Even extreme music makers can fully function with metronomes at 300 bpm.
1 person won't bring in too much extra cash flow I fear.

Re: REQUEST - Removal of 300bpm limit.

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:16 am
by Guest
Vinylizor wrote:Cubase is simply a midi sequencer with digital audio recording tagged on.
Many people would actually like it to be more the other way round.