Poll: Case for single window layout

For users of legacy Steinberg Cubase software

Should Steinberg pursue a single window layout?

Yes
53
32%
No
114
68%
 
Total votes: 167

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by C.LYDE » Thu May 24, 2012 8:46 pm

Thanks to all those who've voted and as well as the extended comments... :roll:

I've a pretty simple philosophy - opinion is like ears, everyone has at least one, but most have 2 :P


Steinberg are known to modify software, not necessarily in the manner 'most' liked by regular users, however these preferred methods are often so different from person to person , that IMHO, it may help to offer straightforward numbers when someone from marketing asks " What do our users really want?"
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Eddie Stealth Studio » Thu May 24, 2012 9:41 pm

thanks for the poll. good to see what users are thinking. ed
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Fri May 25, 2012 12:55 am

Eddie Stealth Studio wrote:thanks for the poll. good to see what users are thinking. ed
Ditto. If we all step back and take a deep breath we'll see it's really inevitable... that they will move to some kind of "consolidated" application design. I would agree that they're not all created equal across various hosts and I don't particularly like the way Sonar did it either, but Cubase is literally the only major linear DAW that hasn't done it yet... so it's coming whether you guys want it or not.

I'd bet on it. I'd also bet that there will be raving about it after the fact. If they do like Cakewalk and just stick it on top of old code, it will likely kinda suck. If they rebuild the UI, I suspect it will be quite nice.

I do agree with the opinion that says when (not if, but when, they will) I hope they do it in a good way, because there are multiple variations of "consolidated" UI's. No two are exactly alike.

Thanks Eddie.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Elektrobolt » Fri May 25, 2012 1:44 am

I agree with many comments in this topic, but I have a tough time voting on these choices. Mostly because if the main screen was a little more "organic" then the interface would be okies as is. My point, I guess, is that is not really about whether it's single or multiple windows, but rather how flexible a management, how well it can be customized (and kept that way), etc.

Docking windows has their place, sliding docks are visually fancy but a pain to work with when on a roll. OnTop are okies when doing specific tasks, but nothing that couldn't be done with just keeping them on a secondary screen, etc. Tabs are, like many pointed out, dependent on how they are implemented.
Like in the VST Connections window, the tabs are fine, but making that window into a docked window would be rather meaningless (better qualify that with FOR ME) since I don't use those functions very often (bring it up, fix something, and back to work).

In Cubase there are two very annoying issues regarding the window management.
1. The automatic restore of maximized windows, when opening certain other windows. Talk about a constant stream of DAMN-IT-like expressions.
2. That some windows are hidden when switching to another application (like VST editors). Nowadays with multiple monitors, running many applications simultaneously is a common activity. Having the main application hide windows when switching really sucks.
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Stealth » Fri May 25, 2012 6:35 pm

Elektrobolt wrote:My point, I guess, is that is not really about whether it's single or multiple windows, but rather how flexible a management, how well it can be customized (and kept that way), etc.
Exactly!

I don't mind the option to dock certain windows, as long as I can still set the window to the (customized) size I want.

For example I like to have a frequency analyzer from the master channel always set up in the lower left corner of the screen under my MediaBay window (which I also always keep open). AFAIK this is NOT something I'd be able to do with the dockable windows in other DAWs like Logic, Ableton, Studio One, etc...
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by chase » Fri May 25, 2012 8:49 pm

Perhaps I've not understood what can be done in software that has a single-window layout?

If Cubase had a single-window layout, could you have the screen arranged like this? ...

Image

... sorry, rather rough, done in a hurry, not properly thought out, and not to scale :oops: . Just trying to illustrate a situation where pieces of several overlapping windows can all be seen at once and clicking on them brings them to the front. So, for instance, clicking on the MIDI tracks and then on the Key Ed would make both fully visible.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by HeavyBeats » Fri May 25, 2012 9:02 pm

multiple windows was cool in 1996, but we have now 2012 ;) Single window workflow is a must have for the next Cubase update.
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Tommok » Fri May 25, 2012 9:09 pm

Maybe one should not confuse the Window design with the annoying BUG of window resizing without any corresponding user action.

For all I care, everything can stay as it is, as long as no windows EVER move or change size unless I specifically tell them to.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by curteye » Fri May 25, 2012 9:43 pm

Conman wrote:Plus "Duh!?" :mrgreen:
ROFLAO!!!! :) :) :)

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by chase » Fri May 25, 2012 11:31 pm

HeavyBeats wrote:multiple windows was cool in 1996, but we have now 2012 ;) Single window workflow is a must have for the next Cubase update.
Why?

Why is it a must have?

Please explain in what way it is more helpful than multiple windows to people who want to switch quickly and often between two or more MIDI editors, the arrange page, etc?

Is the single-window workflow something that is benefecial for all the different kinds of uses that people make of Cubase, or does it improve the workflow for some and make it worse for others?

In what way do you find that the multiple-windows interface stops you getting on with what you're trying to do?

And how would a single-window interface let you work faster?

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Elektrobolt » Fri May 25, 2012 11:33 pm

HeavyBeats wrote:multiple windows was cool in 1996, but we have now 2012 ;) Single window workflow is a must have for the next Cubase update.
The concept of a windowed computer interface (single OR multiple) has been around for a lot longer than that, mate. So it was pretty much "old news" already back in 1996. And a single window workflow was even around before a multiple window environment...

A single window workflow approach over several physical screens does not sound very optimal (I am not saying that it couldn't work). I say there is nothing wrong with the concept of multiple windows. But hey, like you said, we're in 2012, so why not make it better altogether, where for example docking (or some form of GUI linking of windows) would be possible even across applications, etc. And I am not refering to tiling the windows vertically or horizontally, but a more logical cross application window management, where the user can customize the workflow in a better way and still not be locked in any particular "mold".

Anyways, just my two cents.
(And I agree with chase, who beat me to it! ;) )
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by C.LYDE » Sat May 26, 2012 8:44 pm

A general comment with regard to multiple monitors; these really work best in the studio - I would guess that most mobile (laptop) users only use a single screen as the whole point is be 'mobile' - single piece of hardware?

1) Most DAWs have hundreds/thousands of users - some use the software regurlarly/heavier some not, but each legitimate user will want their 'needs' met.. tall order ?!

2) The best non-daw example I've seen of multiple window management within a available screen space is MATLAB. Docking and tiliing is totally flexible. A nice feature is the unfolding window when clicking on the tabs, which can be momentary or locked into place, should it be desired.
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 1:04 pm

chase wrote:Please explain in what way it is more helpful than multiple windows to people who want to switch quickly and often between two or more MIDI editors, the arrange page, etc?
That's the strawman that keeps coming up. If you want multiple windows, undock them. One thing isn't mutually exclusive to the other except in Cubase which doesn't optionally dock anything.
In what way do you find that the multiple-windows interface stops you getting on with what you're trying to do?
In Cubase? For me...

Windows keep disappearing behind other windows. Windows are harder to manage, especially on a single screen. The window title bars for every single window take up vertical space.
And how would a single-window interface let you work faster?
See the above. I work *much* faster in Studio One's UI... not even close. And I have two widescreen monitors in the studio. I usually only mostly use monitor two for larger instrument UI's and full screen audio / midi editors. Everything else is on monitor one docked.

Again... people should stop assuming that if Cubase goes to a consolidate UI that you will no longer be able to have 1000 windows floating all over the place if you want.... that's likely not true. It's a strawman. If you like windows floating all over kingdom come... do that.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 1:25 pm

chase wrote:If Cubase had a single-window layout, could you have the screen arranged like this? ...

Image
Is this enough window clutter for you?

Image

Cluttered enough or you need more? Ok... size and put detached windows wherever you want them and save screensets.

Image
Last edited by Audiocave on Wed May 30, 2012 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by jose7822 » Wed May 30, 2012 1:28 pm

Haha, priceless! :-D
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 1:37 pm

I should also probably mention that both of those applications will show/hide all of those floating windows at the same time so if you like clutter (and apparently some here do?) you can directly toggle everything floating in both of those screenshots directly visible / not visible.

The command in both is roughly "Toggle Floating Windows".

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by sampolfonz » Wed May 30, 2012 1:53 pm

One option they should definitely consider, is allowing the automation lanes to be on top of the audio file.
Studio One, Digital Performer, Logic....all have this option. This would save a tremendous amount of screen space.

Also, they should change the plug in system to have tabs, so that a whatever channel is being worked on only one plug in window has to be open, then clicking on the tabs will cycle through the plug ins for that channel.

Cubase SOUNDS the best of the 4 DAWS I have used over the past couple of years. Logic, Studio One, Digital Performer...all sound similar, but Cubase produces the best rendered files, especially mp3 files. No other platform can touch it.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 2:01 pm

Sorry, duplicate post.
Last edited by Audiocave on Wed May 30, 2012 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 2:01 pm

sampolfonz wrote:One option they should definitely consider, is allowing the automation lanes to be on top of the audio file.
Studio One, Digital Performer, Logic....all have this option. This would save a tremendous amount of screen space.

Sam
That's only half of it. As relates to saving vertical arrange space, Studio One has automation tracks. You can physically move and group your envelopes any way you choose. I mean, you can have 20 volume envelopes from 20 different physical tracks all on one automation track, and edit them all together as a group, in one single track lane. Envelopes are not stuck under their parent tracks, you can move them around in arrange like any other track, and combine them to a single track if you want.

This is four volume envelopes from four completely different audio tracks. Edit them all at once there (or one at a time there) or in expanded lanes, from there. It's pretty obvious how useful that can be. It allows "collecting" groups of envelopes any way you want like that... on a single track.

Image

My personal irritations with Cubase have never been related to "function", it does just about everything under the sun functionally, they're mostly related to "form".

This is probably destined for the lounge now.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by sampolfonz » Wed May 30, 2012 2:25 pm

Audiocave....

I did not realize this. Wow, that can be a huge time saver (scrolling, opening closing lanes).

But, Studio One does not "sound" as good as Cubase. The final produced audio sounds better on Cubase. I have tried several mixes with the same audio tracks and the final always comes out better using Cubase.

Love the functionality of Studio One, but those final mixed audio files are the determining factor for me. Cubase wins.

Thanks,

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 2:34 pm

sampolfonz wrote:But, Studio One does not "sound" as good as Cubase. T
Thanks,

Sam
I made a New Year's resolution to completely avoid the recycling Internet "daw sound" debates. I can do good work in any of them so if people want to debate daw sound ... I'm staying out of it. :geek:

Is there a case to be made that Frauhaufer mp3 sounds better than Lame or that 64-bit float engines sound better than 32-bit float? Don't care really. I only care that clients are happy and that I do everything I can do to make that happen.

I do all my mixes with it and nobody has complained yet.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by chase » Wed May 30, 2012 3:49 pm

Audiocave wrote:
chase wrote:If Cubase had a single-window layout, could you have the screen arranged like this? ...
.
.
.
.
Is this enough window clutter for you?
.
.
Cluttered enough or you need more? Ok... size and put detached windows wherever you want them and save screensets.
Hm, that's a bit patronising. One man's clutter is another's easy access. ;)

Of course my goal isn't clutter, but, sometimes, a little clutter is an acceptable price to pay for ready access to and manipulation of windows.

As I said in the part of my post that you cut out, my rough, hurried and ill-thought-out diagram was just ...
trying to illustrate a situation where pieces of several overlapping windows can all be seen at once and clicking on them brings them to the front. So, for instance, clicking on the MIDI tracks and then on the Key Ed would make both fully visible.
In practice, I want quick easy access to several windows, with (a) typically, two to four of them ordinarily partly or wholly visible at once, and often with one taking up more than half the screen, but (b) with others easily able to be brought to the front, without obscuring the whole of another window and (c) no windows having dedicated screen space and (as such) preventing another window temporarily using that space.

And when I reopen a cpr file, I want the screen be arranged (automatically) exactly as it was when I last saved the file.

What I don't want is an interface that restricts my freedom to see at once, for instance, a few bars in the score editor, a bigger range in the key editor, some MIDI tracks, and (part of) the mixer, etc, or doesn't enable a quick, temporary resizing of a single window to take up much of the screen.

If you're saying that, given a single-window interface, Cubase not only could be used exactly as it can now, but also would offer other useful ways of arranging and accessing the windows, then there would seem to be nothing to object to.

But it would be annoying to be persuaded by those who want a single-screen interface, only to discover later that there were unexpected, or hitherto unexplained restrictions ... and someone says, "Of course you can't still do that - Cubase has a single-screen interface, now. ... And while I'm here, can I just take one of your kidneys - you won't miss it."

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by Audiocave » Wed May 30, 2012 10:18 pm

chase wrote: Hm, that's a bit patronising. One man's clutter is another's easy access. ;)

Of course my goal isn't clutter, but, sometimes, a little clutter is an acceptable price to pay for ready access to and manipulation of windows.
Sorry my friend. Not my intent.

After saying multiple times that most if not all of the windows in those apps detach and float I can only believe that some aren't reading the thread. They all detach so yes, you can put a detached floating window (in any software) anywhere you want.

Not sure what part of that some here (not you) aren't quite getting. Floating windows are floating windows. Put them wherever you want. What happens (with all DAW's really) is that people get so caught up in being defensive (not you) that they dismiss things without even trying to fully understand them first.

The question to ask here is "What do some people gain (not lose)? The larger part of the discussion seems to be people assuming they'll be losing something. Not sure what product those assumptions are based on. Garageband or Sequel maybe? Certainy not DP, Logic, Reaper, or the other professional level products with consolidated UI's.

Thanks. Again, apologies if my reply seemed snippy. Not my intent.

P.S. I have to assume that Steiny aren't so disconnected from reality that they won't make a consolidate UI for Cubase - their pro music product - where windows actually don't detach. I think that's a reasonable assumption to make without asking them.

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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by jose7822 » Thu May 31, 2012 12:20 am

Audiocave wrote:
chase wrote:
P.S. I have to assume that Steiny aren't so disconnected from reality that they won't make a consolidate UI for Cubase - their pro music product - where windows actually don't detach. I think that's a reasonable assumption to make without asking them.
I don't think Steinberg will do something like consolidating Cubase's UI considering what they have done in Halion 4 (and I believe Wavelab 7 as well) regarding window management. However, they did change the comping behavior in a negative way (at least for most users) until they changed it in Cubase 6.5. Because of that, I believe that discussions like this one can only help Steinberg make a better product. The more feedback they get, the better (even if it seems redundant).
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Re: Poll: Case for single window layout

Post by chase » Thu May 31, 2012 12:05 pm

^
jose7822 wrote:
Audiocave wrote:
chase wrote: .
.
Quibble: it was actually Audiocave who said that, not me :) .

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