Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

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neonors
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Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by neonors »

What do I gain from using 64 bit vs. 32 bit.

I have Reason and right now I have plug-ins that don't work in 64 bit so I use 32 bit.

What are the benefits, because I don't notice the differene. And I would like to know it it is worth it, to upgrade the plug-ins at the moment.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by thinkingcap »

The whole forum is full with threads abut this. And IIR there´s even a complete knowledge base article.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by neonors »

thanks - do you have links to some of the posts in here? I tried searching for 64bit and I don't se any relevant threads.

And also to the knowledge base article would be nice as I have no clue to what IIR is..?
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Rop Papen: {Albino3, RG, Blue, Predator 2}
Native Instruments: {Massive, Maschine Micro, Maschine 2, FM8}
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and other various plug-ins.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by thinkingcap »

neonors wrote:thanks - do you have links to some of the posts in here? I tried searching for 64bit and I don't se any relevant threads.

And also to the knowledge base article would be nice as I have no clue to what IIR is..?
knowledgebase article Right on the knowledgebase start page, number one article of the top ten.
IIRC=If I remember correctly.
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neonors
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by neonors »

Thanks

but it doesnt explain the benefits, only that there might be difficuties of different kind.

What do I gain from running 64 bit?

Note. The article is mainly towards windows users, I have Mac.
iMac 27"
Cubase Pro 9,5
Reason 9,5
Spectrasonics: {Omnisphere, Stylus-RMX}
Rop Papen: {Albino3, RG, Blue, Predator 2}
Native Instruments: {Massive, Maschine Micro, Maschine 2, FM8}
Kontakt Komplete 11
and other various plug-ins.
Soundcard: Steinberg C12+

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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Split »

neonors wrote:

What do I gain from running 64 bit?
More memory can be used.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Jarno »

neonors wrote:What do I gain from running 64 bit?
Only real benefit of using a 64 bit software/OS is having able to use more memory. If you need more than 4G of RAM in your computer, move to 64-bit OS. If you need more than 4G (2G or 3G in Windows, depending on your application) memory for your single application move to 64-bit application.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by thinkingcap »

neonors wrote:but it doesnt explain the benefits, only that there might be difficuties of different kind.

What do I gain from running 64 bit?
Yes, it does - read...
Knowledge base wrote:The difference is once again the amount of RAM available to applications. While a 32-bit application running on a 64-bit operating system can address up to 4 GB of RAM, (which is already twice as much as under a 32-bit version of Windows), a native 64-bit application such as Cubase 6 x64 supports a much larger RAM capacity.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by goddfodder »

As time goes by, more and more software will demand and make use of this increase in RAM. Some may even go as far as to say that some software (such as Cubase), has indeed being waiting for technology to catch up, in order for it to truly spread its wings.

In order to make use of the latest software, whilst enjoying the wonders of ever larger amounts of RAM and what can be achieved with this (In music production that's a lot), you need to go 64bit. In the meantime you will find 32bit will become increasingly unsupported.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by phidelity »

Is there a big performance hit using 64 bit or does the additional ram improve performance? What are users real world experiences? Curious what to expect and i haven't found anything definitive ( haven't looked hard either).



A little OT but I have just upgraded to C6, 32 bit from C4 and I have added NI Komplete and between the two additions I am noticing a huge cpu hit. My laptop core 2 duo with 5 gig ram is useable but it definitely feels the load and my tower which has never had to drop over 768 buffer with 30 -40 vsti's and tons of pluggins per project( im not scoring major film projects) but wow ... my last project was surprising how the asio loaded down. Just sayin - not b.tching


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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by goddfodder »

Im not sure exactly what you mean by there being a big hit in performance? The increase in RAM, simply put, allows you to open ever larger projects, use more and more instruments or plug in effects, without the system slowing. Indeed a 64bit system would typically be significantly faster. It makes sense therefore that workflow too should be increased. 32 bit had a limit as to how much RAM it could make use of (4gb), and so as the demands of modern software and its capabilities grow, the RAM restrictions imposed by 32 bit architecture become ever more of a limitation if not a barrier. 64bit can cater for significantly larger amounts of RAM.

About the only real hindrance to a 32bit-64bit transition, as far as Cubase is concerned, is backwards compatibility. IE - getting your 32 bit plugins n VSTs to still work in the 64bit environment. Whilst Cubase does offer a bridging solution, this is by no means a perfect solution to the problem. 32bit plugs are likely to crash in a 64bit world. Whilst other 3rd party companies, such a Jbridge, do to some extent offer a better bridging solution, this whole idea of making 32 bit plugs ins which work seamlessly within the 64bit environment is simply not there just yet (if indeed it ever will be). And even when it does, the old 4gb RAM restriction will still apply for these plug ins. For that reason most VST instrument/plug in manufacturers offer two versions of their software. One 32bit and one 64 bit. Allowing the user flexibility and choice as to how best set up their system during this transitional period.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by wwzeitler »

A little oversimplified, and assuming you have enough physical RAM:

If you're running a 32 bit app on a 32 bit OS, the OS (Operating System) uses a goodly chunk of the available RAM--your app and the OS have to share the same 4GB memory space.

If you're running a 32 bit app on a 64 bit OS, your app gets the full 4GB of memory to itself--doesn't have to share it with the OS.

If you're running a 64 bit app on a 64 bit OS, it's the same situation as running a 32 bit app on a 32 bit OS, except that now you're limited to a 64bit memory space, which is roughly 20 billion gigabytes.

Modern OS's "extend" RAM by "swapping" the contents of RAM onto your hard drive. This is relatively slow. The more RAM you have, the less (relatively slow) hard drive activity goes on.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Split »

Of course W7 versions limit the amount of ram the OS can see as a ploy to get you to upgrade.

For Win 7 64bit

Windows 7 Home Basic 8GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 16 GB
Windows 7 Professional 192 GB
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

Split wrote:Of course W7 versions limit the amount of ram the OS can see as a ploy to get you to upgrade.

For Win 7 64bit

Windows 7 Home Basic 8GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 16 GB
Windows 7 Professional 192 GB
And yer motherboard has some limits to how much you can install also.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Split »

NorthWood MediaWorks wrote:
Split wrote:Of course W7 versions limit the amount of ram the OS can see as a ploy to get you to upgrade.

For Win 7 64bit

Windows 7 Home Basic 8GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 16 GB
Windows 7 Professional 192 GB
And yer motherboard has some limits to how much you can install also.
Oh yeah and so does your pocket :lol:
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Strophoid »

And your case. I bet I could fit 1 TB of RAM with some effort, but after that it'll burst.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by phidelity »

Thanks for the responses. When I asked about the performance hit I was wondering if running the 64 bit version taxed the cpu more than the 32 bit version. I understood that the 64 bit version meant cubase running in 64 bit could access more ram but not being knowledgeable in computer architecture I wondered if there was a trade off. ie more ram gives a performance boost but heavier cpu load because the "data streams" are now 64 bit rather than 32. sorry if im not using proper terminology.


To restate to make sure i understand correctly, if I have 64 bit architecture, ample ram , 64 bit os and software I will likely see an overall performance improvement ( lower latencies and more pluggins).
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Split »

phidelity wrote:Thanks for the responses. When I asked about the performance hit I was wondering if running the 64 bit version taxed the cpu more than the 32 bit version. I understood that the 64 bit version meant cubase running in 64 bit could access more ram but not being knowledgeable in computer architecture I wondered if there was a trade off. ie more ram gives a performance boost but heavier cpu load because the "data streams" are now 64 bit rather than 32. sorry if im not using proper terminology.


To restate to make sure i understand correctly, if I have 64 bit architecture, ample ram , 64 bit os and software I will likely see an overall performance improvement ( lower latencies and more pluggins).
I think from the replies you can take it that there will not be any significant "performance" difference between 32 bit and 64 bit apart from having access to more RAM.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by Jalcide »

phidelity wrote:Thanks for the responses. When I asked about the performance hit I was wondering if running the 64 bit version taxed the cpu more than the 32 bit version. I understood that the 64 bit version meant cubase running in 64 bit could access more ram but not being knowledgeable in computer architecture I wondered if there was a trade off. ie more ram gives a performance boost but heavier cpu load because the "data streams" are now 64 bit rather than 32. sorry if im not using proper terminology.


To restate to make sure i understand correctly, if I have 64 bit architecture, ample ram , 64 bit os and software I will likely see an overall performance improvement ( lower latencies and more pluggins).
no, if anything you'll see a slight increase in performance, number of tracks, number of plugins, etc. when running in 64-bit with the potential increase in ram Cubase might have access to.

you're also more likely to see an increase in stability (less crashing) with 64-bit.

a slightly different example, as i just switched to Cubase from Logic, but when i went from 32-bit Logic to 64-bit Logic, the crashing was less and there were several tracks that would play back without being frozen that had to be frozen before.

this was on a first gen intel mac pro (quad core) with 19 gigs of ram -- so, lots of ram became instantly available to Logic when i switched to 64-bit mode, which explains the results i saw.
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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by brianmanee »

It usually refers to x86 for 32 bit OS and x64 for system with 64 bit.

Technically x86 simply refers to a family of processors and the instruction set they all use. It doesn't actually say anything specific about data sizes. The term x86 started out as a 16-bit instruction set for 16-bit processors (the 8086 and 8088 processors), then was extended to a 32-bit instruction set for 32-bit processors (80386 and 80486), and now has been extended to a 64-bit instruction set for 64-bit processors. It used to be written as 80x86 to reflect the changing value in the middle of the chip model numbers, but somewhere along the line the 80 in the front was dropped, leaving just x86.

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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by grovalmitch »

When 64 bit processors compatible with the x86 architecture were introduced, they were referred to as x86-64. x86-32 (and x86-16) were used for the 32 (and 16) bit versions. This was eventually shortened to x64 for 64 bit and x86 alone refers to a 32 bit processor. The 32 bit processors are designed to handle a limited amount of physical memory maximum of 4GB but 64 bit can handle high memory utilizing 8,16 and some even32 GB.

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Re: Benefits with 64bit vs. 32bit

Post by oqion »

That little checkbox in the studio setup for your audio does NOT refer to the word length of the app!!!
It has NOTHING to do with the architecture, the processors, or which VSTs you can and can not use!

It DOES refer to the size/precision the system will use when calculating individual sample points.
It is about the speed of processing and the precision. It can roughly be explained as analogue to how the waveform is quantized, or how many digits you make available after the decimal point.

If we have an integer precision of the tens place then we can represent 11 values between 0 and 100 [0,10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100]
If we have an integer precision of the ones place then we can represent 101 values between 0 and 100 [0,1,2....98,99,100]
If we have an floating point precision of the tenths place then we can represent 1001 values between 0 and 100 [0.0,0.1,0.2,0.3...99.8,99.9,100]

You get the idea. The number of Bits represent the number of different unique positions you can have, the more bits, the more precision which equates to a smother curve of a waveform.

That's good. But hear is the thing, the more bits you use, the harder, (longer) it takes to process. Just like how it takes longer to do math with one decimal place than it does with just 10ns. The processor has to do that work, and time is critical.

If you have the following amplitudes in your waveform, its going to sound pretty smooth:

0 10 20 30 20 10 0 -10 -20 -30 -20 -10 0

However, the following would sound closer to what your ear hears, say, the singer sing in the same room:

0 9 18 31 17 9 -1 -8 -19 -34 -22 -14 0

The waveform is richer and captures more of the harmonics and what not.

BUT if the processor can't keep up and you get this instead:

0 9 18 18 17 17 -1 -1 -19 -19 -22 -22 0
or
0 9 18 0 17 0 -1 0 -19 0 -22 0 0

That is nothing like what you would hear naturally. This is what is happening when your cpu meeter goes to the red and the mix starts to sound terrible. It is repeating the last known value (or 0) because it didn't get the computation for the next value done in time...
(In this example I am over simplifying and ignoring the bit depth of course only being concerned with the results of computation)

Can your ear hear the difference between 64 bit Floating Point Computation and 32 bit Floating Point Computation?

I can't!

What I can hear is the garbage that comes from overtaxing the processor. So my system is set to 32 bit floating point processing.
It is still a 64 bit architecture running 64 bit VSTs, but this way I get more "creative room" for more VSTs to do more computing in the same amount of TIME.

24-32-48-64-256 sounds pretty good to me so far.

24 bit - depth
32 bit - floating point processing
48 khz - sample rate
64 bit - processor/software
256 samples - buffer size

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